The cyclebreaker: Breaking out of the dysfunction (with Kate Nichols)
About the episode
What if the version of you that kept your family functioning isn’t the version you want to be anymore?
In this honest and personal episode, I sit down with psychotherapist Kate Nichols to unpack what it really means to be a cyclebreaker—especially if you grew up in a family shaped by addiction, people-pleasing, or the need to fix.
We dive into sibling dynamics, the guilt and grief that come with breaking away from old roles, and what it takes to create a life rooted in authenticity rather than obligation.
Guest: Kate Nichols, LCSW
Kate is a psychotherapist, storyteller, and comedian who works with creative women and queer folks to help them break harmful cycles and live more authentic, empowered lives. Drawing from her own experience as a queer creative, Kate blends humor, empathy, and insight to support clients in healing trauma, embracing their identities, and finding deeper connection.
This episode will help you:
Identify the role you played in your family—and how it’s still shaping you
Determine whether you’re ready to get comfortable with making uncomfortable changes
Practical ways to start tuning into what you want and need (instead of what others expect)
Discover what free or low-cost mental health tools are available to you.
Episode links
LISTEN TO OUR FAMILY DYNAMICS 101 EPISODE: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5dVDA080Dx8SjrDR0Wx5GK
ABOUT KATE NICHOLS
https://www.cyclebreakerstherapy.com/about-kate-nichols
HOW TO IDENTIFY IF YOU’RE A CYCLE-BREAKER
https://www.cyclebreakerstherapy.com/therapy-for-cycle-breakers
Resources
💬 JOIN OUR SIBLING-FOCUSED COMMUNITY
Join our Facebook group, Siblings For Love of Recovery to:
Connect with other siblings
Share your own story in a safe space
Support for navigating the journey
🤳 CONNECT WITH FOR LOVE OF RECOVERY
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/forloveofrecovery
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61561542956095
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Kate: [00:00:00] You're looking at your family, right? And you're just going, I don't, I know that I don't wanna do what they're doing right because I've seen how it hurts them or how it hurts the people around them, or how it's hurt me. So if any of those feelings or thoughts are coming up, that's usually a sign that there is a cycle.
To be broken.
Dominique: Welcome to FLOR, For Love of Recovery, where I'm your host, Dominique Dajer. Sibling relationships can be so unique, but they can become more complex when there's drug or alcohol use involved. If you find yourself questioning how to help. You're not alone. Every month we bring together stories that empower you to navigate your sibling's addiction and offer a sense of connection.
We also provide fresh perspectives on understanding substance use and how to protect your peace. Join me on this journey in restoring hope and healing.[00:01:00]
Welcome back to our second episode in our three part mini series on Parentification. In our last episode, we explained what exactly Parentification is and why it often falls onto the eldest daughter. In this episode, we're talking all things cycle breaking. What it is, who often takes on that role and what it means to pave your own path, even if it means upsetting the people you care about.
To help us dive into this topic, we have Kate Nichols with us. Kate, thank you so much for being on the show today.
Kate: Hi, I am so happy to be here.
Dominique: Kate is a psychotherapist and anxiety and trauma specialist who's passionate about working with women. Queer folks and creatives to help them break cycles that no longer serve them.
So Kate, I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. You do so much around like the role of cycle breaking and helping people like live their best lives. Um, so thank you so much for being on the show today. For those who might be listening and don't necessarily know what it means to be a cycle breaker or they might have heard that term tossed around social media, could you explain like what exactly that cycle breaker role [00:02:00] is and what people could do to identify if they might be one?
Kate: Absolutely. I think the idea of cycle breaking is a pretty broad concept. Mm-hmm. It's anyone or any action that you take to identify a cycle or a pattern, either within yourself in your own life, or maybe intergenerationally within your family system, and change that pattern and create something new in its stead.
So identifying cycles, these patterns of behavior, patterns of thinking, patterns of feeling that are not serving us. They're not in our best interest. Mm-hmm. And often they come from a place where at a point in time, maybe it did help us. Maybe we did need that in terms of our best, um, resources at that time to survive and recognizing that maybe this actually isn't helping me as much or I don't need it in the way that I did before, and there's something that I can do differently that might serve me better.
Dom: Yeah, that makes total sense. And like, I love that you brought up the point of like survival and like being in survival mode. [00:03:00] Especially when you have substance use in the family, it can feel like you're in a constant like fight or flight mode. What are some examples of cycle breaking in the context of like having a family member that's struggling with addiction?
Kate: Yeah. So when it comes to addiction, that's a pretty clear and concrete or tangible example of cycle breaking because often substance abuse is an intergenerational family pattern. Mm-hmm. And again, most people who find themselves in a position of abusing a substance, it comes from a place of survival that this is the.
Best they could do to manage emotions or situations that felt out of their control. So if we're talking about a cycle breaker, specifically within the context of families where there is substance abuse, that might be someone who goes, I'm not gonna abuse substances in the same way that my family members did.
But they end up in these dysfunctional, maybe very codependent patterns. Where they take on this massive caretaking role. So I know that you did an episode on Parentification, so, so oftentimes the Parentified [00:04:00] child becomes a codependent adult who even if their family members break their own cycle of substance abuse, they end up in relationships where they're taking care of people.
Mm-hmm. Or in jobs where they're heavily taking care of people, really sacrificing themselves. When we talk about codependency, we're talking about anything that goes beyond your capacity, where you're taking care of someone more than you're taking care of yourself. That's the line that we're usually talking about.
All that to say, it doesn't necessarily just have to be substance abuse. The substance can be relationship, the substance can be overworking, the substance can be taking care of others so much that you're neglecting yourself and your own needs. 'cause you never really learned how to take care of your own needs without a compulsive behavior to fill that role.
Dom: Mic drop. Yeah. What I thought was really interesting is like whether it's the family member that's actually using the substances or the family member or the sibling who is trying to do the cycle breaking, they're all trying to survive and they're all trying to solve a problem in the way they know how.
[00:05:00] Right? Like for the family member who's using the substances, it might be like. This is their answer to whatever trauma or challenge they might be dealing with. And like the person who is often the sibling or the child who is trying to do the cycle breaking, they're just trying to like survive and solve their own problems in a very different way.
So I think it's like a lot of like nature versus nurture too.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Dom: Do you feel like they're, that's a fair like. Representation of like, or a fair analogy of the situation.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think nature versus nurture is always an important thing to return to, that there is a balance of both things, that there are behaviors that are modeled and learned, and then there are genetic predispositions perhaps, or personality traits that are innate that might lead someone into certain types of behavior.
Again, whether it's substances or. Compulsive behaviors, like, um, I talked about codependency, but it could be like overshopping, overeating over spending, um, hoarding, things like that that
Dom: we see come up as well. Yeah, [00:06:00] that, that definitely makes sense. And I'm thinking about like the areas of my life where I've seen some of those.
Behaviors show up. If someone is thinking about, like, starting to change some of the cycles in their own life, right? Like you had pointed out, maybe they don't wanna engage in, um, illicit substances, or maybe they wanna be smart about like how they might be using certain substances, including alcohol. What are some signs that they can begin to make some changes outside of the context of just like using the substances?
What are some of like those patterns and behavior that they can begin to pinpoint?
Kate: I think if anyone recognizes that something in their life feels like it's out of control or it's not working, or you're dissatisfied or unhappy. Mm-hmm. That's a key sign, right? Mm-hmm. That there is something here going on that is you find yourself continuing to do it.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Kate: But you're going, why do I keep doing this thing? Like if there's a voice like that in your head. That shows that maybe this thing isn't really helping you, but you're like so torn because you're going, but I keep doing it, [00:07:00] but I wanna stop. Or you're looking at your family, right, and you're just going, I don't, I know that I don't wanna do what they're doing, right, because I've seen how it hurts them, or how it hurts the people around them, or how it's hurt me.
So if any of those feelings. Or thoughts are coming up, that's usually a sign that there is a cycle to be broken. And often for folks, it's just anything along the lines of like, why do I keep doing this? Mm-hmm.
Dom: So it seems like the first sign, and maybe the most important sign is like the recognition, like recognizing that there's some kind of issue mm-hmm.
And that you're having a greater awareness or like how it might be impacting either you personally or the people around you, and like a conscious effort to want to make a change.
Music: Yep.
Dom: Does that sound right?
Music: Yeah.
Dom: Okay, great. Mm-hmm. I just wanna make sure like I'm understanding it correctly. 'cause these are questions like I've asked myself and I try to, when I'm talking on the podcast, I always try to share like, this isn't necessarily like a.
Place for me to just ask the questions, um, that I might know the answers to, but it's really like a place where like I'm trying to [00:08:00] learn too.
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Dom: As I'm like figuring out all of these behaviors and changes in my own family.
Kate: Yeah. I mean, if we wanna like define a cycle, right? It's, it's, so you mentioned awareness.
Awareness is a very key component. If you're gonna break a cycle, you have to know you're in a cycle.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Kate: So if you're in the throes of a dysfunctional behavior or substance abuse or something like that, you might just take it as reality, like as a fact, right? That this is the way it is. But if you have any awareness around this that there's a part of you going, I don't think it has to be this way.
I think there's another way that's kind of
Dom: a key. Yeah. Over the last couple years, I've done more reflection on my own. Salt in my own family and I've realized like, like you've mentioned earlier, addiction can off often be a generational cycle, and I've begun to ask like, how can I help ensure that this.
Doesn't happen, you know, with my own future kids. Mm-hmm. If in one I decide to have children or people who are listening, they might have young kids, they might be wondering, okay, like just because there was addiction in [00:09:00] my family, does that mean that my child is gonna grow up to struggle with addiction too?
And it sounds like that's not always the case, especially if you're making these conscious, um, efforts and changes to change your own behavior or like the way you. Interact with your family?
Kate: Absolutely. I don't think that it's fate. I don't think that you're destined. Mm-hmm. To create the same patterns that you have seen within your family, and that there is a lot of nuance and a lot of difference.
Mm-hmm. Yes. There are things that are really hard when it comes to our maybe genetic predisposition or again, our innate personality, and to have some compassion and some grace with yourself around that is really important. To recognize, Hey, I'm fighting an uphill battle here, maybe, um, because people can get very easily thrown into an all or nothing way of looking at things, right?
Where it's like, Ugh, well I did that thing again. I'm a, you know, I'm, I'm a failure. I'm destined to continue to be codependent or an alcoholic like my whole life, right? Whatever [00:10:00] it is. Um, and to recognize that there is a lot of room for nuance and that you are fighting against something that might be intergenerational for.
You know, such a long period of time. Mm-hmm. Such a depth throughout your, um, ancestral lineage. But it's also so important to remember that there is strength in your ancestral lineage as well. There is survival. I love that because you got here so every. Ancestor. Mm-hmm. Back to the beginning of humanity, survived long enough for them to procreate for you to exist today.
Right. And there have been survivors throughout your lineage, just as there have been people who have maybe experienced substance abuse or dysfunctional behaviors or patterns, whether it's throughout their lifetime or for a period of time in their lifetime. There are people already.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Kate: Who either broke cycles, did things differently, or survived or had great strengths, and you inherited those strengths as well.
You didn't just inherit the trauma. So that's something that's really important
Dom: to remember. I love that. Mm-hmm. [00:11:00] Um, I think it's something that often goes unnoticed or just like not really shared is like you, there's strength in your ancestral lineage. Just as much as there are the challenges and the struggles.
And I think we can pull from all of those areas. There was something you had mentioned, um, earlier on in that statement where you had said if you're breaking cycles, um, there might be points where you might be doing really well and just because you may, you maybe like mess up or you don't do it the way you thought you would, doesn't mean you're a failure or that you did it wrong.
I think there's a lot of highs and lows when it comes to cycle breaking. Just as your loved one who's struggling with addiction might have highs and lows, whether it's in their active use or their recovery, and I think. Those moments, like I think it's okay if your behaviors change, um, especially if it's in the context of.
Your loved one. Substance use. If someone in
Kate: your family system or someone in your life system, someone that you know mm-hmm. Has an impact on you, maybe has gotten sober right? Or has broken a dysfunctional pattern, there's this expectation maybe that like everything's gonna be great from now on and I'm gonna feel better and I'm not gonna be [00:12:00] stressed anymore 'cause I'm not worrying about them and I'm not trying to help them or change them, but.
Those patterns could still persist or new things. Mm-hmm. Could show up and that's okay. That's what I mean when I talk about having some compassion and some grace with yourself. It's okay if things aren't just perfect and all sunshine and rainbows, and sometimes what we see is if we're not the person in the active substance abuse, we're responding to someone in our family system who is, or someone in our life who is.
We think that once they get better, we'll get better. And there can be almost like this inertia that like you, for maybe so long in your life, have tried to help this person or have been fixated on. Are they okay? What are they doing right? I need to be checking on them and helping them that once they quote unquote get better, your brain is still operating in that way.
So maybe it's looking for other problems to solve or maybe it's creating situations that aren't actually happening and then you look at yourself and you go, what the hell is going on? Yeah. Like I thought every, they're fine. You know, that person is fine. I should be fine. Why am I still like [00:13:00] looking for problems or fixating or worrying?
Right. And that's okay. That's totally normal. You've been on that rollercoaster for so long. You know, when you like come off a rollercoaster and you almost feel like you're still moving for like a
Dom: second.
Kate: Yeah. The adrenaline
Dom: is still
Kate: pumping.
Dom: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Absolutely. It's funny that you. Bring this up actually, because on our first episode on ification, I was talking to Whitney and I was like telling her that I spoke to my therapist and my therapist was like, you're just looking for problems to fix.
Music: Hmm.
Dom: And I was pointing out, um, other people in my family that have, at the time, I would've argued like issues with certain things and I would bring it up to her. I'm like, should I bring this up to this person? And they're like, is it affecting this person's life? Is it really that much of an issue or does it just bother you?
Music: Hmm. Because
Dom: if you're looking for something to fix. That's part of like this behavior of like being this parentified child where you are just looking for people's problems that you think you have the authority or like the expertise to help. And she's like, you need to find something else to do. Yeah. So it's absolutely something [00:14:00] that, um, I've seen come up in my own life too.
So I love that you're bringing that up. So,
Kate: so true. And when we find ourselves stuck in that, like trying to fix everybody around us, we forget that. They are adults. Mm-hmm. And we are an adult now, right? Correct. Especially if this is something you grew up with and you're parentified as a child, that's an inappropriate role for a child to have.
Developmentally, it just doesn't make sense. You don't have the resources, the emotional resources, the uh, physical resources to be an adult to take care of other people. So that was something that was put upon you before you had the capabilities to really deal with it. Now you are an adult. They are an adult.
So your responsibility is you. You are your child now. Mm-hmm. You are your inner parent. You are taking care of your inner child. That's your responsibility, that's your role, and that is their responsibility, and that's their role to take care of themself. Mm-hmm. So if you find yourself compulsively continuing to do that, you're actually also robbing yourself of your own emotional energy, your own time.
To actually live your life.
Dom: That's so [00:15:00] true.
Kate: And to experience joy and to do things that bring you comfort and healing and strength and growth because you're still giving so much of your energy to other people, even if you're just from a far kind of judging and Yeah, trying
Dom: to maybe intervene. I forgot where I heard it somewhere on social media, but someone had given this analogy.
It's like, take the. 10-year-old version of you, or whatever age you might wanna think of, of you as a kid, take that child and sit them down next to you and pretend that you had to take care of them for an entire day. Would you treat them or would you talk to them? And would you give them the same responsibilities that you're giving yourself today?
Hmm. Because that's kind of like the child that you need to. Parent is like, you need to parent that inner child that you once were or that you still have within you. Mm-hmm. And would you still talk to the 8-year-old or 10-year-old version of yourself, the way you speak to yourself today? And, um, I think that's something that's really coming up in like Parentification is like.
We get stuck in like these pigeonholed roles that are no longer serving us.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Dom: What are [00:16:00] some of the signs that you might be actively breaking a cycle, even if it's invisible to other people?
Kate: I think that relates to your own internal experience. If you feel like you're breaking the cycle, you're doing it for you.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Kate: Again, you're doing it for that child version of yourself who needed someone. Back then that they didn't have or needed something that they didn't have. So if we talk about cycle breaking in terms of substance abuse, I think what you're saying is externally you drank or you didn't drink, right?
Mm-hmm. Like so people could see that. So people can go, oh, good for you. You're breaking the cycle. But if you're breaking a cycle of codependence, right, where you're just checking in on somebody or obsessing over how somebody else is feeling or doing all the time. Mm-hmm. That might not be quite as visible.
Maybe it is. Maybe you used to text this person 10 times a day. Mm-hmm. Checking in on them, you're not doing that anymore. People can recognize you're breaking the cycle, but for you internally, it's about do I feel [00:17:00] like I'm getting better, feeling better? Am I engaging in new? Patterns of thinking or behaving that are positively having an impact on me.
And if the answer feels like a yes, then I think that you are,
Dom: sometimes being the cycle breaker or fixing people or fixing the issues in my own life can feel kind of isolating, especially if you other family members are not recognizing the signs or maybe they're recognizing the signs but they're not willing to do anything.
About it. Hmm. Can you describe why that might feel so isolating for some people that are in that position? Yeah, this
Kate: definitely happens a lot where the family system becomes really dependent on the pattern of dysfunction. Mm-hmm. Again, like that is the reality of the family situation. So let's create an example to help flesh this out.
Like, let's say we have a family with. Uh, two parents and two kids, and one of the kids is in active substance abuse [00:18:00] and the family fixates on protecting, caring for where are they, how are they doing? The family member with the substance abuse issue, and there's one person who's going who? We're not helping, like we need to put some new boundaries in place where it used to be at the drop of a hat, you go pick them up.
Mm-hmm. You know, from wherever they are, you give them money over and over again, even though you know that the money isn't necessarily helping them, but you're just, you don't know what else to do. And one person in the family, maybe the other sibling goes, I'm not gonna keep giving them money whenever they ask.
And then the rest of the family kind of freaks out and they go, why would you do that? We need to help them. We need to keep them alive. We need to help them survive. They need this money and this. Other sibling is going, I can't keep giving them money because I don't have enough money for myself even.
Mm-hmm. I'm sacrificing things that I need or I want just to give them money and it's the, their behavior is not changing. So that could kind of send a shockwave through the family. And then they might turn on you and go, oh, what a, you know, what an asshole, what a jerk. This. Mm-hmm. This, [00:19:00] uh, other person in our family is because they're not jumping to help this other person anymore.
Absolutely. So yes, that can feel very isolating because you're breaking the pattern. You're trying to break out and go, actually, I think these boundaries might help. We haven't tried this. We know that what we've been doing all along isn't working. I think this pattern is actually hurting all of us more than it's helping anyone.
Absolutely. On the surface it feels like help because we gave them the $20 and that's what they asked for, but we ke it. We keep living the same day over and over again, so I'm gonna try something different. And again, if you're recognizing like I'm giving more than I have to give. Mm-hmm. That is not in your best interest.
That is not in your. Survival. You can't help anyone else if you have no resources
Dom: left. That was definitely my experience. Mm-hmm. Um, not, not about like every single point, but we were stuck in this cycle of like wanting to save my brother and like help him. And I found that like I was one of the main people who were like constantly looking for resources for him, trying to help him get to appointments and my mom [00:20:00] was like doing the chauffeuring around and I, we had to take a step back and realize this isn't actually helping him because.
He's also an adult and he's not taking any initiative to make any of these conscious changes. And I think once we were able to take a step back and let him become an adult and, you know, experience his own consequences and make some of these changes on his own, I think that's where I started to feel a little less isolated.
Like once I had like, the buy-in of my family on like making those changes. Mm-hmm. Because when I was doing it or when I, when my mom was doing it, or my dad was doing certain things. I think we all felt isolated at very different points. So I think there is this emotional toll with like being the first person to like make that change.
Yeah.
Kate: And there are lots of things out there to help with isolation. I just wanna spend a minute on that for anybody who's listening who might be feeling that way. There's a program called Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families that. Um, is [00:21:00] essentially a support group, a a 12 step program that help, that can connect you to other people who have similar experiences, so you feel less alone.
So I just wanna put that out there for anybody who's listening and like wishing that maybe they had a sense of community around that, um, that, that exists. If you are feeling isolated in your experience, find a message board, find a website, find an Instagram, find you know, a TikTok, find something where people are talking about it, and.
Feeling less alone is so important to our own recovery from dysfunction in our family systems. So finding that connection where you can is really important. And I, I do encourage people to do that
Dom: because I feel like the more I talked about, like either my story and I connected with other people and I heard their experiences, I felt like so much less alone.
Um, because as people know and they're listening, addiction and like the way it affects family can be a very isolating. Experience. Yeah. So 100% agree with you. I think the cycle breaker can often feel like they're the only ones making changes and that they're. Parents or their [00:22:00] siblings or whoever else is around is not making any changes or doing anything.
Does the whole family need to be on board for a cycle breaking to work, or can that really just be more of a self-fulfilling, um, process?
Kate: I think it can be a self-fulfilling process, an individual or independent process. I wanna acknowledge that it can be really painful when you wish everyone else around you would change and you can see.
Mm-hmm. That. They are maybe engaged in their own patterns or cycles that are hurting them. But you, if you're an adult, are responsible for yourself. You are the adult in your life. Mm-hmm. You are the parent in your life. You are the grownup in the room. So you really can only have accountability for yourself and your own cycles and your own patterns of behavior.
And maybe that in and of itself that. Coming back to that frustration compulsively, if you're doing it constantly, putting yourself in the state of emotional chaos where you're so frustrated, so frustrated, excuse me, with everyone [00:23:00] else in your life who you wish would change, then again, you are robbing yourself of the opportunity to focus on yourself, take care of yourself, do what you need, and focus on your own healing or recovery, or however you wanna put that.
Dom: Yeah, I think that something that you talked about is like, it's almost like the emotional burnout with like having to talk about the same thing over and over again with people in your life. And when do you feel like people hit that point where it's like, okay, maybe it's not worth having this conversation, or maybe it's not worth.
You know, saying it the same way, like what are some things that people could do where they still wanna feel heard, but they don't necessarily wanna, you know, beat a dead horse where it's just like you're repeating the same thing. I know that can be particularly hard with like families, they, I know estrangement is a big thing and people might not be in a place where they're ready to like cut off a relationship leave, but how can they make sure that their voices are still being heard?
Kate: This is a great question because this does happen so much and the answer would vary. Depending on each individual [00:24:00] and each relationship. Mm-hmm. Having the attunement to your own needs. Mm-hmm. Your own wants what you need in order to feel okay about a situation. So again, spending some time with yourself, you need to check in with yourself.
And for people who grew up in families with dysfunction or substance abuse, that can be really hard because you're so used to your emotional state, your internal world, being dependent on the people around you and how they're doing. If they're happy, I'm happy. If they're stressed, I'm stressed. So learning how to recognize how you feel, taking a few deep breaths and checking in with your body.
Mm-hmm. Just kind of scanning, like, are your shoulders up? Lower them a little bit. Um, is your heart rate up? Can you take a few deep breaths and maybe send a calming message to yourself like, I'm okay. Yes. That is going on out there, and it sucks, but right here in this moment, I am. Okay. I'm safe in this room that I'm in, whatever it is.
So recognizing what you need and doing some work if you need to around how to do that. Because I think for a lot of people like us for cycle breakers, maybe that's the first step. Mm-hmm. Is even recognizing your own internal [00:25:00] experience and then validating your own internal experience that it matters.
Yeah, you're just a human. You're just an accumulation of molecules that exist in this moment in space and time. Right. And the way that you feel is valid just because it's there. And in terms of recognizing what you need from other people. Right. And maybe you're saying the same things over and over again and you're getting so frustrated 'cause they're not hearing you, you're not getting the response that you want.
Spending some time doing some work around detaching yourself from the outcome. Hmm. I love that. I need to say what I need to say because. I need to verbalize for myself that what I want, or what I need, or what I think is valid and it does matter, but the way that this person receives it or takes it or responds to it is their deal.
It's not mine. I need to say it just 'cause I need to say it. 'cause I need it out there. 'cause I need to say my peace. Mm-hmm. I hope that I plant a seed, maybe. I hope that it leads to some change. I hope it leads to some reconnection or healing within the relationship. But if it doesn't. Yeah, I've gotta go home and take care [00:26:00] of myself and still make sure that I'm okay.
Dom: I think that's such an important note where it's like a lot of the times I think we get up, we get caught up in like wanting to use our words, and I don't wanna say a threat, but it's almost like a manipulation tactic. Mm-hmm. Where we're hoping that if we do something or say something, it will incite X response.
Mm-hmm. In this person. Mm-hmm. I know that I've been guilty of that. There are people in my life for different reasons, uh, where maybe I didn't like, you know, the way they did something or the way they behaved. And I kind of said, if you do a, I will do B, right. Or if you don't do A, then I will do B. And when that thing didn't happen, it kind of, I don't wanna say it surprised me, but it kind of made me think about like, now what, like what's the big mm-hmm.
Like, what's the big end result that I want to come outta this conversation and like, why am I so disappointed? Disappointed because I was hoping that my manipulation tactic would actually work. You wanna really do it for yourself. You wanna have that conversation because there's something that you need to say, not necessarily because you're hoping to incite a [00:27:00] response in the other person.
Kate: Yeah. If you're manipulating something and manipulation is super common in response to dysfunction. Mm-hmm. So I just wanna normalize that, like don't vilify yourself or anything. Mm-hmm. But. If you're manipulating a situation, you are trying to create a certain outcome. So you need to get clear with yourself that the outcome you're aiming for is just saying your piece, or hoping that it leads to some change, but not forcing it.
Right.
Dom: Yeah, and I think like the important thing too, especially with substance use is that. The manipulation. The manipulation tactic might be perceived as something positive. Like you might be thinking you're doing it for the creator good, or because it's gonna help this person's health, or whatever the end goal is.
But it's like if you're doing it because you're expecting it or 'cause you're putting them in a corner and wanting to get a result out of them, then it might not be the most authentic thing for, for you [00:28:00] to do or say.
Kate: Right. Exactly.
Dom: There was something else that you had mentioned around like. Recognizing the signs internally of like your nervous system overreacting, getting stressed out or like wanting, you know, that fight or flight moment that comes up and we're having these conversations with people.
I think sometimes like silence speaks volumes and I think when we're the cycle breaker we kind of feel the need to like call people out and like. Point things out and like really use our words to justify or explain what's going on. And sometimes your actions can really speak louder and realize that maybe not everything that's going on in your family with substance use is an emergency.
Because I think in my experience at least, I've always felt the need to react to behaviors or situations and. I think just taking a pause and recognizing that is this an actual emergency or do I need to really say this thing? Or can the situation resolve on its [00:29:00] own? Or can someone who's more qualified a professional, or can the adult in this situation like take care of it?
Do I need to step in? Like, is this something where my experience or my voice is needed? And I think recognizing that can actually help us, like take accountability for our own lives and our own, um, emotions and reactions. Learning to take a beat,
Kate: take a breath. Think, give yourself a little space between what you are experiencing, the thing that's happening, the situation, and your response to it.
Another point
Dom: that I wanna talk about is the family members that are willing to make a change. And sometimes that looks like going to family therapy. Sometimes it's not. Part of the, um, process and sometimes it is. I remember when my brother was about 13 or 14, must have been like late middle school, early high school, and he was just starting to experiment with substances, marijuana.
And I remember we were all so focused on like wanting to fix [00:30:00] him and he was in his own counseling and his therapist invited us into the session and I don't know why it happened this way. But we all attended his session and it all became a shit show. We were all pointing the finger, who is to blame what my dad did wrong, what my mom did wrong, what I did wrong?
And it all became like this. Frustrating experience where we never wanted to go back. We all became like the scapegoat in that experience. Is that normal? And is it normal for families to not go back and like what should they expect if they do decide to go to family therapy together? Ooh.
Kate: Family therapy is hard work.
Okay. I just, again, I wanna normalize that for sure, and it can take work to get used to it and for it to become effective, but it, it is very challenging to put. A few people in a room who have a lifetime worth of history together and try to get everybody on the same page.
Music: [00:31:00] Yeah.
Kate: And to put the spotlight all of a sudden on the issues, right?
Mm-hmm. Because usually we're all just going about our day, doing our things. The issues are there, but we all have our ways of functioning around them. Mm-hmm. Our own dynamic. And then we shine the light on it. We put a magnifying glass on it. Everybody gets defensive, right? Mm-hmm. Everybody wants to point out at everybody else.
So I just wanna say it can be extremely hard work, and I'm not super versed in family therapy, so I don't wanna speak on it as an expert, but I do think that's probably a pretty common experience, that it's rough. It's rough. I know we felt like
Dom: we were all in the ringer. Yeah. I
Kate: would say, I mean, if there is research out there on the retention numbers, I would bet that there are a lot of families who, you know, have a, a first try and then they back away.
Mm-hmm. Maybe they come back later, but it is really hard and I, yeah. So I think that might be a common experience.
Dom: Yeah. Do you think it's like normal for. Go into family therapy or not for like those dynamics to change and like what can people expect? Like when one person starts doing the [00:32:00] work or multiple people start doing the work, how might those family dynamics actually play out?
So a family is an
Kate: ecosystem. Like every part is dependent other on other parts. It's interdependent. It's, it's the system of connected things, of connected people. Mm-hmm. So we're talking about the family and the ecosystem. Any pets or extended family who are close, you know mm-hmm. Within the system that's, it's all an ecosystem.
So when we think of an ecosystem, if one thing changes. Everything else has to adapt, and an ecosystem is always trying to return to its equ, its equilibrium, its homeostasis, its ability to function. So if there's change in one area, there's inevitably going to be change in other areas. Mm-hmm. Not to say that it's always what we might label as positive or helpful, but it will have an impact.
The hope is that it will be positive and helpful. So that, yeah, that's my answer to that question is that we're all part of these systems, these ecosystems. So if one thing changes, other [00:33:00] things are going to change. Mm-hmm. I think it comes back to focusing on yourself and taking care of yourself. Really, at the end of the day, that is the biggest thing that you can do.
And sometimes it's about modeling a behavior. I'm gonna try to do things differently. I'm gonna try to take care of myself in this way, and maybe the people around me, the other parts of the ecosystems within which I exist will take note and maybe they will respond in kind. Maybe they'll want a little bit of what I have and they'll make those changes.
But if you keep coming back to the same thing over and over again, beating a dead horse, like you mentioned before, trying to like shake somebody by the shoulders. Mm-hmm. And force them to change or hope that they'll change. You are just gonna burn yourself out and end up, I think costing yourself more of your own resources, more of your own, your own energy.
Dom: Yeah. Like drawing from your own, like emotional bank. [00:34:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes total sense.
Kate: Yeah. There's a quote that I wanna share because I think it's a really simple and elegant way to put this Prentice heel. Um, they're a social change activist, I believe, but the quote is something along the lines of boundaries are the distance at which I can both love you and myself.
Dom: Hmm. I love that. Yeah, I really like it too. Yeah, that's, that's really helpful and I think it's a good motto to live by. In all aspects of our lives. Like not just in the context of like substance use or family dynamics. Mm-hmm. So, um, I hope everyone actually takes that and applies it when we feel like we're not getting the response that we want or, um, the changes in our lives that are not happening fast enough for our loved ones as well.
Like not just for us, we can begin to. Grieve the experiences that we haven't had or the experiences that we'll never have based on what has happened in the past. Um, there's a little bit of guilt as well when we're making some of these changes because maybe we're doing better and our family [00:35:00] or our loved ones are not.
What role does that grief and guilt play when you realize that you can't fix or save someone? Sometimes we call this
Kate: like survivor's guilt. So you've, you're getting better maybe. Mm-hmm. Right? You're, you're creating new cycles, new patterns in your life that are healthier. You're feeling better, you're living a more fulfilled life, and maybe you look at the people in your family system who are not right, who are stuck in a pattern of dysfunction, they're hurt.
That is totally normal for some of that guilt to come up. And it's also normal for it to not, I don't want anyone to feel bad if they're like, I actually feel great. Don't feel guilty about it, that's okay too. Yeah. But that guilt is very common to recognize that guilt, to validate it to yourself. It's okay that I feel this way.
It's a sign that I really care about the people in my family who are still not doing well, or the people in my life who are not doing well. It's also still their responsibility and I'm also still my responsibility and do something to take care of yourself. In [00:36:00] that moment because if you don't, if the guilt starts to fill up more and more of the space within you and it kind of morphs into shame, then you might find yourself trying to escape that painful feeling and engaging in your own dysfunctional behavior.
So do something to take care of yourself if you're noticing that guilt coming up, and know that it's totally normal and okay to feel that way.
Dom: Yeah, like two things can coexist at the same time still. Absolutely. Cope with those feelings of guilt, but also recognize like you've created these boundaries or you plan on creating these boundaries and like you're still going to prioritize your own mental health and wellbeing.
Mm-hmm. I love that. Another challenging thing to. Work through when there's substance use or there's changes in the family dynamic is forgiveness. Um, how important would you say forgiveness and acceptance is in this kind of work? That is a
Kate: tricky subject because there are a lot of differing opinions within the professional field.
There are people who say you must forgive in order to move on. Mm-hmm. There are people who say, you don't necessarily need to forgive in order to move [00:37:00] on. I think again, that comes to checking in with yourself and seeing how you feel. Mm-hmm. If you're holding a grudge or holding onto something and it's burdening you, it's weighing you down, you obsess over it, you think about it all the time.
You find that it influences your actions in the way that you move through the world, that's probably a sign that you might wanna do some work on. Learning how to let that go, whether it's forgiving that person or saying. I don't necessarily forgive them, but I can accept. That this is the reality of what happened and it happened then, and I can do something different to move forward.
Now I think those are some of the things that you can do. But if you feel that like I'm holding onto this thing, I really wanna know that I have forgiven this person 'cause it will help me move on. And you don't necessarily need to tell a person that you have forgiven them for that forgiveness to have happened.
So you can do it your in your own way. You can do it in your head, you know what? I forgive them. You can write it out. There are lots of ways to maybe symbolically engage in [00:38:00] a forgiveness practice that might be helpful. As humans, we are embodied beings. So sometimes it helps to do something physical, like writing it out or, you know, and setting a letter on fire or creating something like a piece of art or, uh, taking yourself on a trip and going, this is my trip.
That is a gift to myself for forgiving that person, for moving on or taking yourself out to a dinner. It doesn't have to be as, as big as a trip, but doing something to acknowledge
Dom: that for
Kate: yourself.
Dom: I love that. Uh, there are two points that I wanna make that actually come out of what you just shared is one, you talked a little bit about, um, acceptance, and I think sometimes people think that acceptance means that you have to approve of a situation or that you have to like a situation.
And I just wanna put out there like, I found that acceptance just means that, you know, you're. Um, you've come to peace or you've come to terms with the situation, it doesn't mean that you have to like it.
Music: Yeah.
Dom: So I think that's something that has really helped me on my journey is I can accept where my brother is, I can accept how my families have responded.
I don't have to like it.
Music: Yep.
Dom: [00:39:00] And, um, I think that has given me a lot of peace, um, in my own life. Yeah, I'll say it be like that sometimes. Yeah. It's, it's just a very powerful phrase. That's so true, honestly. And the other point is, like you talked about like different forms of forgiveness. Maybe it's like writing a letter, maybe it's, uh, taking yourself out to dinner and like having your own moment, whatever can take a lot of different forms.
For me, something that has really helped is, um, journaling. And I know it sounds like such a cliche, but, um, something that has helped me is my brother has been living on and off the street for some time. And there would be periods of time where like, I just wouldn't see him for weeks, or I wouldn't hear from him for days at a time.
And I cr created this little journal where it wasn't just like your traditional journal. It's like I wrote letters to him for all the things that I would've wanted to say to him, um, during the time we weren't speaking. And it made me feel closer to him. During those moments when I just literally didn't have an outlet to communicate to him.
Hmm. And maybe it's not as close to forgiveness, but [00:40:00] it's something that's helped me accept the situation and. Where we both were in our lives.
Kate: I, I love this so much and thank you so much for sharing that. Because what you labeled was what you wanted, was connection to him. Mm-hmm. That you felt disconnected from him.
You wanted to be connected to him, but a part of you recognized Absolutely. I can't just get out there and go looking for him every day. Yeah. So I'm gonna do what I can do. I'm gonna write these letters to him. Yeah. That share how I feel. And that did help you to feel more connected to him during that time.
Dom: Yeah, absolutely. My brother and I, uh, we've always been pretty close. Something that I talked about in the Parentification episode is like, we're 10 years apart, but I've always played this momlike role to him, uh, because of that age difference. And I think this free discovery of what it means to just be a sibling was something that was really important for me.
Um, so it was like more this journey of like what I wanted our relationship to look like and how I wanted us to like eventually move forward. Mm-hmm. So, um. He's has not seen this journal yet, but uh, maybe one day, like, I'll pass it off. But it's actually a perfect segue into [00:41:00] like the next topic around sibling relationships is, I kind of answered my first question is like, how might we, how might the cycle breaker actually impact the sibling dynamic?
And I kind of talked about that, is like doing the work and accepting the situation, but, um. I don't wanna know, like, in your own experiences, like what does it really mean to just be a sibling? Um, I think a lot of people might be figuring out what it might look like, and, um, addiction makes it really hard.
But what are some ways that someone can begin to rediscover what it means to just be a sibling for them? Like for me, it was like writing these letters, but it's gonna look very different for each person who's listening.
Kate: Absolutely. It's gonna look different. Sibling relationships, there's a huge range of what those relationships can look like.
Some siblings, as you said, are very close. Some siblings are not, and that's okay too. Mm-hmm. You can't control who you're related to, and siblings don't always get along. They don't always like each other and they [00:42:00] recognize that they're different people and that's okay, and they're gonna live separate lives.
And there are siblings who are super tight and do get along. Really well, and there are cultural family differences as well, where some families have a kind of family culture of the family before everything.
Music: Mm-hmm. So
Kate: maybe recognizing that for yourself as well, if you are feeling like, but I have this duty to my family.
Right, right. But it's like driving you crazy. Yeah. And maybe recognizing, maybe I, maybe I don't. Maybe that's something I was taught. Maybe that was something that was modeled for me. Maybe what's actually best for me and the way that I feel at the end of the day is to have a little bit more distance or separation from these people.
And that's okay.
Dom: Yeah. I love that it's relearning what you want those relationships to look like. Yeah. I think there's a lot of like trial and error that goes on. Um, it's not really the situation where you're gonna get it right on the first go, but giving yourself some grace to. Try it out. You began to talk about some support programs like for [00:43:00] adult children of families that struggle with addiction.
What are some other resources that you think might be helpful for people who either are cycle breakers in their family or are thinking about making some big changes for themselves in their lives?
Kate: Yeah, this is a great question again because I want people to be able to come away from this with something if they are looking for help or feeling alone right now.
So the a CA program, there are a few other similar programs and they operate. Internationally. So usually you can find something within your area, and they have virtual meetings too. So even if you're in an area where maybe you can't get around or there isn't something close by, maybe that is an option for you.
I think that there are lots of ways to get. Help formally, right? You can find a therapist in your area. You can find support groups, you can find a community center for folks who are interested in therapy but are worried about cost, there are lots of low cost options available, whether it's a community mental health center where.[00:44:00]
They will, um, accept Medicaid or Medicare insurance or offer a sliding scale that's more affordable. There's a website called open path collective.org that is a network of therapists who offer sliding scale and low cost sessions. There is a membership fee, but it's a one-time fee and it's lifelong. I believe it's $60.
Last time I checked it was maybe it. Different now, but that is an option that's available as well. And you can filter through people who may be specialize in working with people who are part of families with chronic dysfunction or substance abuse issues or codependency so you can find somebody. I also always encourage people to have data around when you're looking for a therapist or when you're looking for help.
Give it a shot. A lot of therapists offer a free consultation. A lot of these groups, you can just show up to one group and there's no expectation for you to pay anything or even participate. If you like it and something [00:45:00] works for you, move forward, keep going. If you don't like it, if there are red flags or things that don't work for you, take it or leave it, that's okay.
And when it comes to a therapist search. Do take advantage of free consultation calls. Find somebody who feels good for you,
Music: right?
Kate: Because what I hear a lot unfortunately is people try something, it didn't work, and they go, well, there's no help for me. I encourage you to to keep at it. You deserve it. And I think that we live in a world with an abundance of options.
So try to find something that works for you, whether it's therapy, whether it's a group, whether it's engaging with your hobbies, whether it's finding friends or people who've had similar experiences. There are lots of ways to feel
Dom: better. I absolutely love that you said that because I, from my own experience, I've actually participated in all those different areas and I can absolutely say it's, again, trial and error about learning what works for you.
Like, just because it worked for someone else that you might know doesn't mean it's gonna work for you or it's gonna work the same way. Uh, like something that I've spoken about openly is like, I've gone to Aranon meetings, I've actually found my therapist through Open Path, so I'm a [00:46:00] huge supporter and, um.
On the Flub of Recovery website, we actually have a direct link to Open Path. So if anyone who's listening wants to go check it out, you can find a direct link on our resources page along with other resources for men, women, people of color, therapists that are also more gender inclusive. So I just wanna point out, thank you so much, Kate, for sharing that because I think those resources are.
Constantly, um, underrated. And those are communities that are also often underserved. So thank you so much for sharing that.
Kate: Amazing.
Dom: For parents who have older children that are either, um, struggling with addiction or parents that have children that are supporting their brother or sister who struggles with addiction, um, what kind of grace or support can they provide them, um, along those journeys, even if it.
Stings them. I think one
Kate: of the best things that parents can do and it's so hard is hold space for their kids' experience. And I know after Wicked in that whole interview holding space has taken on this whole like, you know, kind of mm-hmm. Cliche tone. [00:47:00] But it is an important thing. And what we mean when we say hold space is to bear witness to somebody else's experience without trying to change it.
Without trying to force change without. Um, judging, passing judgment on it. So as a parent, being able to sit with your kids' experience and go, I know that's hard, that sucks. Mm-hmm. That sucks. And I'm here and I've got your back and we're gonna find a way to be. Okay. I think that's a really powerful thing that, that people can do for each other, that parents can do for their kids.
Dom: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really about like. What I like to say is like accepting your kids for who they are. Like not trying to create the children that you wish you, that you might have had. It's really about just like who they are at face value and like what you can do to support them in the way that they want to be supported.
Kate: Yeah. Something that I've heard before that I really love is a parent's job is not to create a kid into an adult, but to learn who this person is. Mm-hmm.
Music: So to
Kate: let your kids show you who they are and learn who they are as you go, and yes, help guide them into being, you know, a certain [00:48:00] maybe. Kind of person who is decent in the world.
But um, yeah, that is part of the job is just to learn who your kids are. And often I work with people who come to me in my private practice looking for help with cycle breaking because they are newer parents or considering becoming parents. And they go, I know that I don't wanna parent my kids the way that I was parented, but I'm not sure what I want in instead.
And again, the work comes back to if you wanna change the cycle of how you were parented, you have to change the cycle of how you treat yourself first. You have to break the cycle within yourself because you're gonna be modeling that for your kids. Your kids are gonna be responding to your nervous system, to how you feel.
We pick up on each other's feelings and experiences and internal worlds more than we might realize. So it starts with you. It's not just, what do I do to my kid, with my kid to break the cycle? It's how do you take care of yourself to take care of your kid, to break the cycle?
Dom: Absolutely. And I wanna point out like, it's not about like making sure that your kid is living in a [00:49:00] stress-free world and that they aren't facing any challenges, but it's really about like giving them the tools and the resources so that way they can navigate those challenges in a way that fits their life in a way that's, you know, age appropriate for them.
Yes. And just like equipping 'em, right? It's not about like alleviating all of that. Stress or challenges for them.
Kate: Right. We can't do that. It's an un unobtainable objective. Mm-hmm. This perfect life. Uh, a life with no worry, no stress, no pain, no challenge. Our role as people within the world with each other is to be there for each other and to help each other out so that we can all, you know, make it through.
Yeah. I think that's a really important fact to remember and that we are gonna make mistakes. We are gonna fail, but we can always get back up and try something new. Yeah. Again, I'm queuing Hannah Montana. Everybody makes mistakes.
Dom: Everybody
Kate: has those things. Everybody has those days. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's hard out there.
And so what we can do is be there for each other. Yeah. And again, the. Better we're taking care of ourselves, the more we're going to be able to [00:50:00] help the people in our lives who matter to us, the people around us. Absolutely.
Dom: So for parents that are listening, taking care of yourself is taking care of your kids.
Um, I think it's a very important note. And with that being said, is there anything else that you'd want to leave as either a message of hope for either the cycle breaker in a family or someone who's thinking about making some drastic changes in their life?
Kate: I think that if you are thinking about it, you're already taking the first step, and that's huge.
And you deserve to feel okay. We all deserve safety just because we exist. We're here. We got here somehow. So. Recognizing that you might want to make a change is already the first step. You've already done so much because you're aware that something is going on and learning how to listen to yourself and understand and validate your own internal voice.
Your sense of deservedness and safety in the world is one of the best things that you can do to help you to start moving forward. [00:51:00] And again, there are lots of ways to do this. It's not a one size fits all model. It's not all or nothing. Yeah, any step is a good step. Any step in the right direction. Even if you find yourself falling back, you know, one step forward, three steps back.
Mm-hmm. You're still trying as long as you keep going. Like if you think of a graph, right, like a scatter point graph and maybe there's a, a a point that's up and then there's a point that's way down, that's back, and then there's another point that's up and then back. As long as you keep going and keep trying, that trajectory is gonna trend upward over
Dom: time.
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a great point to make. It's like it's not black and white. Like you said, there's no one size fits all approach. And I think that's something that's really important when it comes to our own healing, but also like in the context of like navigating your loved ones substance use is that there's no one size fits all approach to like what's gonna work.
And that's in the context of resources. It's in context of like how you're making progress or measuring progress in your own life. Well I wanna thank you so much, Kate, for coming onto the show. Um, I really [00:52:00] appreciate it and I'm sure the cycle breakers who are listening will also find some tidbits in there that they can apply.
Kate: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for doing this work and for putting this out there because I think the ripple effects that come from us owning our stories, owning our truth, being ourselves, and being honest about the things that we're working on, again, it models and it sets that example for other people.
It sends the message that we're not alone and hopefully helps people to get connected to the right resources or start making some changes that help them. So I really thank you for doing this. It's awesome. It's incredible and I, I wish you all the best. Thank you so much. Thank you. I love that. Own your story.
Dom: Thanks for listening to this episode of For Love of Recovery. If you enjoyed this episode or know somebody who might, please leave a comment and share it. You can also join our Facebook group, siblings for Love of Recovery. If you're looking to have deeper conversations around your siblings drug or alcohol [00:53:00] addiction, and remember whether there's hope, there's healing.