Why am I still waiting for the other shoe to drop? Anxiety after a sibling gets sober (with Shahem Mclaurin)
About the episode:
Why does your body still feel on edge—even when life finally feels calm?
When a crisis ends, or a loved one finally enters recovery, most people expect relief. But for many, calm doesn’t bring immediate peace. Years of family chaos, emotional unpredictability and trauma brings anxiety, hypervigilance, and the constant feeling that something bad is about to happen.
In this episode, trauma specialist and social worker Shahem McLaurin breaks down what happens in the body after the crisis phase ends. We talk about why your nervous system stays stuck in survival mode, how long-term stress trains you to stay alert, and why “nothing happening” can feel unfamiliar or unsafe.
We also get into boundaries, trust, and what it actually takes to feel safe again without rushing healing or forcing yourself to “be fine.”
Whether you’re a sibling of someone with addiction or someone healing from family trauma, this conversation is for anyone learning how to calm their nervous system after chaos—and stop waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Guest: Shahem McLaurin, genderqueer licensed social worker and EMDR therapist
Shahem McLaurin uses their platform to address a wide range of social and mental health issues impacting people of color, patriarchy-impacted people, and members of the LGBTQ+ community.
This episode will help you:
Understand why your nervous system stays in survival mode long after family chaos or addiction ends
Identify the caretaker role and how that person often prioritizes everyone else around them
Learn why calm can feel unfamiliar—or unsafe—and what that means for healing
Start rebuilding a sense of safety, trust, and boundaries at your own pace
Resources
💬 JOIN OUR SIBLING-FOCUSED COMMUNITY
Join our Facebook group, Siblings For Love of Recovery to:
Connect with other siblings
Share your own story in a safe space
Support for navigating the journey
🤳 CONNECT WITH FOR LOVE OF RECOVERY
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Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61561542956095
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Shahem: [00:00:00] You don't have the space to be vulnerable. You don't have the space to fuck up. you kind of take on these roles and these behaviors and these patterns and it's a lot of pressure.
Shahem: when They feel like they have to be the one who can't create issues because your sibling has that covered. Or you just feel like there's nobody to catch you when you fall because maybe you been
Dominique: been doing it yourself. Yeah. Your whole life.
Shahem: Absolutely.
Dominique: Welcome to FLOR for Love of Recovery, where I'm your host, Dominiueiniueinique Dajer. Sibling relationships can be so unique, but they can become more complex when there's drug or alcohol use involved. If you find yourself questioning how to help, you're not alone.
Dominique: Join me on this journey in restoring hope and healing.
Dominique: When someone we love is struggling with addiction, chaos often becomes the norm. when things finally quiet down and when that person in your life has finally found recovery, being calm, can feel uncomfortable, and it can even feel [00:01:00] wrong. Today I'm joined by Shahem McLaurin, a genderqueer licensed social worker and therapist to explore why chaos can feel familiar after trauma.
Shahem: Hi.
Dominique: Hi, Shahem.
Dominique: I'm super excited to have you on the show today.
Shahem: I'm excited to be on.
Dominique: I love that you break complex topics down into super digestible ways and our listeners are all about like, make it make sense. Like make it real for me. And I think you do a great job of that.
Dominique: You've talked a lot about trauma and how trauma can show up in tons of different ways. And that's something that is really resonating with me lately. As most of our listeners know, my brother has been in recovery now for about eight or nine months and I constantly feel like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Dominique: That's something that I want some help navigating, but it's also something that I think a lot of our listeners can relate to and would want some support in understanding more about.
Shahem: Yeah.
Dominique: So I wanna start off with giving you the floor and asking you to take us on the journey of like what exactly it means when chaos [00:02:00] becomes normal and how it might actually show up for families when they don't even realize it.
Shahem: Yeah. Chaos becoming normal. I think that's something that most people can relate to because these are the people we are around all the time or who we have the closest proximity to, whether they are biological or chosen.
Shahem: Uh, Families can be chaotic, but I think what really strikes me is the difference between a family that is
Shahem: cohesive, and a family that's enmeshed and how different people in the family systems chaos can kind of spread when a family is enmeshed.
Dominique: Okay. So can you explain like what exactly the differences are between like being enmeshed and being like normal?
Shahem: A cohesive family is, a unit of people normally biological, that share a lot of common things like religion, culture, [00:03:00] ethnicity, practices, values that come from being in a family unit.
Shahem: Everyone within that unit like has the ability to express themselves freely, to be themselves individually, and everyone cares about everyone's individual emotional and mental health.
Shahem: Whereas in an enmeshed family is typically more chaotic because boundaries are blurred. Somebody in the unit can have like a strong emotional presence, and that emotional presence kind of dictates the way that things flow. It could be a lack of individuality. People can be punished for being individuals when someone in the unit has poor emotional or mental health that could control the way that everybody else functions. And that's because everyone's entangled and there aren't proper boundaries.
Dominique: Yeah. It sounds like it can get very complicated. There's a lot of like. Maybe false expectations that are floating around or different desires from different family members. [00:04:00] We're in a more cohesive family unit. It sounds like most of the family members are on the same page or shared a lot of the same values and traditions.
Shahem: Yeah. I would say in a a cohesive family, everybody can have a lot of shared values. Even in a mesh families, though people can have shared values. I view all of it like a balancing act to be balanced in both the unit and also the individual is super important.
Shahem: Like when you are dealing with, say, a relative who suffers from substance use disorder, their misuse of substances can control the emotional flow of the household because there are no clear boundaries.
Shahem: And everybody's emotions are entangled. it can dictate and control the way that people interact with each other and engage with each other.
Dominique: Absolutely. I can like definitely say that's true from like my own family's experience. Watching my parents being become very consumed and like watching how they either haven't created boundaries, right.
Dominique: With other family [00:05:00] members or with my brother and everything just becomes like an emergency all the time. And it's very hard to see outside of that tunnel vision. And you're not creating like a safe space for the other family members if you're constantly consumed with one particular person or one particular situation.
Dominique: Could you tell us a little bit about what some of those challenges might be when it comes to substance use being introduced into the family?
Shahem: Yeah. I think it becomes like what came first, the chicken or the egg type of situations.
Dominique: that's for sure.
Shahem: did a lack of boundaries set the stage for addiction to take root? Or did the addiction itself cause a lack of boundaries and clarity and chaos within a family? You gotta figure that out situation by situation.
Shahem: If boundaries, aren't clear if parents are becoming so consumed with one child who's suffering from substance use, that they kind of like take away a lot of emotional nurturance and care for other children, that can create like a chaotic environment.
Dominique: Also [00:06:00] like the parent can take on that role, but so can other family members or siblings becoming very consumed with that particular loved one that's struggling with substance use.
Dominique: Absolutely. I almost became this emotional manager of my parents. Right? Playing the role of peacekeeper and like wanting to make sure everything was okay and making sure that they're okay, and putting myself on the back burner. Why do you feel like that's like particularly the case when it comes to siblings or maybe other family members that are not parents?
Shahem: Out of curiosity, can I ask what age were you around the time when this started?
Dominique: Yeah. So my brother and I are 10 years apart, so I think when, like when he started experimenting might've even been like 13. And then when his substance use became really chronic, he was like 16 and I was just moving out of like living with my parents. So it was like this weird dynamic of like me being a mom to him, me being a mom to my mom and I know it's probably not the case for every sibling if they're closer in age.
Shahem: Absolutely. That definitely makes sense. The reason I ask is just because I'm curious about like just what stage you [00:07:00] were in life.
Shahem: And the thing is, when we're going through a lot of transitions, our brains are gonna try our best to like create some sense of normalcy because that equates to safety. So it makes sense that you kind of went into that, kind of role. And I am gonna go on a limb and say it's likely that.
Shahem: That type of role didn't just start when you were moving outta
Shahem: your parents' house. It goes back to like boundaries within a family dynamic. Challenging things that can lead to enmeshment, finding the balance between all of the things.
Dominique: This topic of enmeshment was very important to understanding more about like addiction and how it shows up in relationships because I think it might start off in your family dynamics, but I think it can definitely spread into like a lot of other relationships.
Shahem: Oh, absolutely. Children who grow up in enmeshed environments, for example. Could grow up and be more susceptible to being in an abusive [00:08:00] relationships, like, for example, people who take on like the managerial role, who feel like they have to control and take care of the emotions of other people. I'm not saying this is you, of course, but like people who can feel that can often find themselves in situations with people who don't know how to manage their own
Shahem: emotions and can be emotionally abusive.
Shahem: For example. these things can happen and these dynamics have impacts like way beyond like just like the childhood experience and the family unit. Yeah,
Dominique: Definitely. That was actually like my next topic that I wanted to talk about was like how relationships show up like in adulthood too. You hit the nail on the head.
Dominique: When I was in early college, I was in a very emotionally abusive relationship. So that was definitely something that I had to like work through understanding why did I gravitate towards the people that I dated and understanding the psychology behind myself. I really realized how much of an impact like childhood experiences, relationships with your parents or siblings or other close family members can really have on you.
Shahem: It's a deep impact. Cause I'm a trauma [00:09:00] therapist specifically, an EMDR trauma therapist, so I know how deep these things go or can go. You are doing good work here. I just wanna say that like, and thank you for being so vulnerable with
Shahem: Oh, you. I try to be, 'cause as a sibling, I feel like there's hasn't really been like a safe space where you can just like go and like dish it out and really talk about it.
Shahem: I feel like a lot of experiences are shed on parents and partners and adult children and those are all like, valid experiences. But I feel like siblings, the relationship there is like so unique. I love being able to just talk about it in a very vulnerable and open way. So I appreciate that
Shahem: Of course. I just think this is such important work. I actually lost a cousin recently.
Dominique: Oh, I'm sorry.
Shahem: I'm sorry. Thank you. But his siblings really are like navigating a lot of hardship because he struggled with substances while, while he was alive. And talking to his siblings has been just eye-opening about how, again, like how unique [00:10:00] that relationship is and how their suffering isn't really centered in like, when you have to navigate losing someone.
Shahem: And it's just such a deep bond and it's like, thank you. 'cause this space is really important.
Dominique: Thank you. I really appreciate that.
Dominique: And I feel like it gets very complicated.
Dominique: We talk a lot about like losing your parents or like losing other relationships, but I feel like no one talks about like, what happens when you lose a sibling. And not just in terms of death, but also in terms of losing the relationship.
Dominique: You might have had a totally different experience despite growing up in the same household, maybe having the same biological parents or not, or just the same environment and like your perception of like what happened could be very different.
Dominique: My brother's been using substances more chronically since he was about 16. And I felt like I was really grieving the hopes and dreams that I had for him, you start to grieve those expectations too.
Dominique: It's not just the physical sense of the relationship, but also like I guess your own [00:11:00] dreams for them. So it's very complicated.
Shahem: It's even evident in the way you preface like your grief for your brother. Yeah. Like somebody who's like your literal sibling. Like, yeah, I know we weren't this or like my know?
Shahem: Yeah.
Shahem: It's Okay.
Shahem: And this goes for anybody
Shahem: pull to the forefront, the love and what comes with that love, grief that you have for your siblings. And the fact that we are in a society where we have to even preface that says a lot.
Dominique: Thank you. It's definitely tough because I feel like, especially in a society where like, I feel like the addiction and recovery community is very split.
Dominique: Like there is a group of people that believe in just like one approach. Like it's very much rooted in like tough love
Dominique: or there is one group that's like very moved and like towards harm reduction. It just feels like there hasn't really been like a place where we can like come together and talk about two different approaches.
Dominique: And I feel like siblings are like, well, what do I do? Right? Because I'm in this weird place where it's like, I'm not a parent. It's not my kid, it's not my [00:12:00] partner. Right? Like I just feels like I still deeply love this person, but like, how can I show up for them in a way that's realistic for me, but also protects who they are and the relationship.
Dominique: There's a lot of like complexities, not as much as just like cutting someone off or being for them without any boundaries.
Shahem: The gray
Dominique: It's the gray area.
Dominique: That's, that's what I should name this podcast. It's like the gray area.
Shahem: It's the gray area. So funny you even mentioned that because I like remember early in my social work days Mm-hmm. I did interviewed for a 12 step program to come on as a social worker. The way that 12 Step program talked to those people, like the tough love
Dominique: it's like, do or die. I was mortified. I said, get me out of here. This is not how I operate, when you are siblings with someone who is going through substance use disorder. It's complex. It touches everybody in their life. And I think finding that balance between [00:13:00] how you can show up, how you can set boundaries, that applies to siblings too, just like anybody else.
Dominique: Yeah, definitely. a lot of the times, like you don't need to sacrifice that sibling closeness for not having any boundaries. You can do both.
Dominique: Yeah.
Dominique: Part of the work that we're doing is like to find that like balance in a way that works for you. Like, not necessarily like just follow 12 steps, don't just follow harm reduction like.
Dominique: Take what you need from both and apply it in a way that works for you. Like you don't need to do one or the other.
Shahem: Part of where I think a lot of people run into like hardship is that they don't, and this is for the siblings including you, like, they don't take time to realize, like, what do I need?
Shahem: When it comes to even setting boundaries between you and anybody mm-hmm. Let alone a sibling going through like having substance use issues, what do I need? Like what makes me feel safe? What do I need to, to show up in this connection? My best self? What do I need to take care of [00:14:00] myself?
Shahem: Like boundaries are about. You and there's this like saying that I love so much, it's like, you know, 'cause you can build a fence around your yard. Nobody cares about that. But when you go building fences around other people's yards, that's when it becomes an issue. That's for sure. And I think of that when I think of like setting boundaries with a family member who has substance use issues, because you can't build those boundaries around what you think they need.
Shahem: You have to really be introspective and check in with yourself about what you need. Like Right. If you know that you can't, like financially show up, for example, because you're, it makes you feel bad. If you know that you're contributing to somebody's use of substances, you can say, well I know that I can't lend you money.
Shahem: Not
Dominique: 100%. Like when I started going to 12 step programs, I started going to Maranon with my mom and it was definitely out of like desperation and I was like, what can we do? Right? This is before I really knew much about like addiction or recovery, and I went there looking for support for my brother.
Dominique: Like, tell me how to [00:15:00] fix him and I will get it done. Like, that was like the mindset that I went into like my first couple of meetings with. And one of the things I did learn from going to like Narran on meetings and from the 12 Step program is that you can't change anyone.
Dominique: You have to use what you're gonna learn and apply it to yourself.
Dominique: And I think that was one of the best things that I learned going to aranon meetings. And the second best thing that I learned was like what boundaries are. Because for a long time I was walking around life thinking that boundaries were ultimatums, that I were giving other people, hoping that they would do what I want.
Dominique: And when it didn't happen and it backfired, I realized shit hit the fan and now I'm in a worse situation. And I needed to like reframe that mindset to understand like it was really about the boundaries I was creating to keep myself safe, whether it's emotionally, mentally, physically, and just creating a healthier space for myself.
Dominique: And, and I think a lot of the times, especially siblings, older siblings or, sisters also feel like it's their job to be the mom. [00:16:00] And I think a lot of the times we've been conditioned to take on that role and it's okay to, it's okay to step outta that and be just maybe a mom to yourself or just like protecting yourself.
Dominique: So yeah, it's tough out here.
Dominique: Yeah.
Shahem: Yeah.
Dominique: So we talked a lot about relationships, about siblings and why those things are so complicated. One of the things I wanna talk about is when we're thinking about trauma, I feel like it definitely increases our tolerance for pain and what we're willing to tolerate from other people.
Dominique: I wanna talk a little bit about like, why does that occur for siblings? Like, why do siblings feel like I don't need help, I don't need this kind of support. Or like I can do it all on my own.
Dominique: I know I've worn that hat, so maybe I'm not speaking for every sibling out there, but I feel like a lot of siblings and the older ones do.
Shahem: Okay. So I [00:17:00] Am going to disagree with one part. But that's, it's an important part. I found in my work that trauma does not increases people's endurance for pain. It disconnects them from their ability to process and feel it. And I find, especially because I do EMDR therapy which if people don't know what it is, it stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing therapy.
Shahem: It's not talk therapy. It's a therapeutic model that like focuses on memory processing trauma, but in the body using bilateral assimilation, which is a fancy way of saying stimulating most sides of the brain. But I found like through introducing people to processing trauma in their bodies, the more that they process the trauma that they've kind of like buried deep down behind mm-hmm.
Shahem: A lot of defenses or the roles that they play in their lives. Like the more that people open up to processing that trauma, the more they come back to like [00:18:00] realizing like, oh, this shit hurts and I am not invincible. So that's just like the only like asterisk I'm putting there. Like it can feel like, you know, you aren't feeling that pain, but it comes out in different areas.
Shahem: And I think it's so important to acknowledge that once people have the opportunity and the spaces to safely process through trauma, they realize that they've been carrying around a lot more pain that they've been able to like even bring to the forefront. And especially when it's a sibling who is dealing with.
Shahem: The caretaker role, they don't have the space to do that because they're busy taking care of other people.
Dominique: Yeah. It's like being in like a form of like survival mode, right? Yeah.
Shahem: Caretakers deserve to be cared for
Dominique: Mm.
Shahem: Mm-hmm. You know, and I can't emphasize that enough.
Shahem: I like to ask the question, like, who's gonna hold the hand of the hand holder? Yeah. Like, somebody has to. As much as many of us, like find strength in the, the role of [00:19:00] provider and caretaker, I, I think being vulnerable enough to open yourself up to being cared for yourself is so important. I have to emphasize that.
Shahem: Did I answer your question? I'm like, I, I did
Dominique: yeah. You reframed the question. It was really about why do siblings learn to tolerate pain more than other people? And it's not that they're really tolerating more pain, I think they're just, like you said, handling it in a different way.
Dominique: It might be masks or they might be, it might just show up differently for other
Shahem: people.
Shahem: Yeah. I don't think a lot of, them have the space, when you feel like someone else is in crisis. Always. Especially if it's a sibling.
Shahem: You don't have the space to be vulnerable. You don't have the space to fuck up. And you take on these roles and these behaviors and these patterns and it's a lot of pressure.
Shahem: When they feel like they have to be a. the one who can't create issues because your sibling has that covered. Or you just feel like there's nobody to catch you when you fall because [00:20:00] maybe you're, you been
Dominique: been doing it yourself. Yeah. Your whole life.
Shahem: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's tough. And
Dominique: I'm
Shahem: exhausting. If you're tired, take a break. Yeah. That's what I like to tell my people.
Dominique: Yep. That's gonna be the name of this episode. If you're tired, take a
Shahem: break.
Shahem: Take a break.
Dominique: Yeah. It's so true. There was one thing that you said. You might feel there's just no space for you to worry about yourself because you're constantly taking to other people. And what I envisioned in my head was like this constant reshuffling of priorities, right? It's like, okay, like things keep changing. So it's like you're kind of scattered brained and like this is the priority. That's the priority and you're never on that list. I'm a to-do list kind of girl.
Dominique: I'm constantly putting things on my list, crossing things off just for the satisfaction. Even if it wasn't on the list, I'm putting it on the list and I'm crossing it off and I'm constantly reprioritizing in my brain what needs to get done. And I felt like I grew up that way too. When it came to like the relationships that I cared about, whether they were romantic or my family or just like friends and work.[00:21:00]
Dominique: I was constantly prioritizing relationships based on like whoever was dealing with a crisis.
Shahem: Oh.
Dominique: It's funny 'cause I didn't make that connection until you were talking about it. And I do that with like a lot of areas of my life. It's like I'm constantly, I guess that's normal to a degree. Maybe just like figuring out what needs to get done.
Dominique: But it's also just like I'm never on that. I'm rarely on that list. It's constantly, it's just like what do I need to do for other people? Or what do I need to do for work? Yeah. And I think trauma and like that kind of grief can show up in a lot of different ways that we don't talk about.
Shahem: One thing I like to emphasize too is just like having the space to exist in that. Just be enough. I hope that you take that. Yeah, yeah. Because, and I hope that you, you have like such a very exuberant energy, so I'm assuming you are surrounded by a loving and strong community of people who like allow you to be cared for too.
Shahem: But I think that's an important thing to [00:22:00] find.
Shahem: I'm a firm believer that community is the anti antithesis to a lot of the things that we deal with. Agree. When you can find a strong community of people who allow you to be vulnerable and to not be just the caretaker, it's easier to navigate life.
Shahem: And I hope that you find, if it's one or two people, I don't care, but somebody who lets you just like exist. 'cause those sometimes to-do lists can wait.
Dominique: Yeah, no, I know. Definitely. And I really appreciate that because I feel like I forget that sometimes, and I think a lot of us do, right? We always talk about like, you know, self care and taking a break, but it's like, what does that actually look like?
Dominique: Like sometimes it just means like taking a break and like my, my best friend, she always says, Dominiueiniueinique, I just want you to just like count ceiling tiles. Like literally just do nothing. Like just sit with yourself. Like that's like her slogan. And I always like laugh about it. So I was like, 2026 I'm sitting with myself, like, that's what I'm gonna do.
Shahem: That's what I'm gonna do. Count and ceiling tiles. I might, I might use [00:23:00] that
Dominique: one.
Shahem: Thank you bestie. Um, yeah.
Dominique: Yeah.
Dominique: It can definitely be complex, but I think there's a lot of resources out there. And you talked about finding community. I think that's super important. And community, like you said, it doesn't need to be a hundred people. It can be an intimate group of people that you trust and rely on. There's like that saying that the opposite of addiction is connection.
Shahem: Mm-hmm.
Dominique: And I think that's definitely true here.
Shahem: A thousand percent agreed. And I don't know, again, I just keep coming back to like how amazing of a space this is and how often siblings are not centered in, in this process. I always just applaud anybody who's brave enough to talk about the thing that's like pushed to the back burner or the people who are often not considered in conversations that are super important. Yeah, the best way to combat the chaos is by [00:24:00] having boundaries, um, knowing what you can and cannot tolerate. Setting limits, um, but doing it with love. I think, uh, there's also this misconception that you have to be really hard through a process like this, and you can do it with love. Like I always tell my people, when I say my people, I mean like my clients, but also like my community. You can lean with love when you set boundaries. Like you don't have to be cold or emotionally distant. You can be just honest and vulnerable. Like, I love you and I love you so much that I know that I can't do this part because if I do this, it makes me feel this.
Shahem: And when I feel this, it makes it harder for me to show up and I wanna show up for you. So when this happens, I'm gonna have to do this.
Dominique: And I think something that like a lot of siblings might be able to feel this is sometimes we're not the best person to help because we have too much of a personal stake or an emotional stake in that person's [00:25:00] wellbeing.
Dominique: And like I was talking to my therapist about this a couple of weeks ago and I was telling her how I was worried about my brother's, progress at the young adult program he's in. And we talked about like why I was feeling that way and I've always played the role of like caretaker and like therapist with him, even though I knew Jack shit about being a therapist, right.
Dominique: but it's like what I thought was like the right thing to do. And she asked me, she's like, well, why do you care? Like obviously it's because I love him, but like, why do you care so much about like this one particular topic? Or why do you care so much about the progress he's making with his counselor?
Dominique: And come to realize that I was just so scared of like waiting for the other shoe to drop and me learning more about what was going on in his head and me feeling assured that he was making progress with his counselor, made me feel better about his recovery. So I didn't have to worry about like.
Dominique: Shit hitting the fan later on and him leaving treatment because that's something that he is done a lot.
Dominique: [00:26:00] And I think the big reminder for siblings is sometimes you can love, you can lean in, sometimes you can lean out when you need to, but sometimes we're not the best person to help 'em. Sometimes we are and sometimes we're not. And that's okay.
Shahem: Yeah. I think that's true for everybody. Truly. Like sometimes you just can't help, especially when you haven't taken the time to sit with yourself.
Shahem: Yeah. And sort through your own stuff, which is why like taking on that caretaker role is only as effective as your ability to take care of yourself.
Dominique: Yeah, definitely.
Dominique: it's true. So we use the word like trauma a lot, and for those who might be listening, they might understand trauma as like these one-handed experiences or these one-off moments. Can you explain like how exactly like trauma can show up for different people?
Dominique: It's not a single occurrence, but maybe like a series of events or like what that
Shahem: might
Shahem: look Okay, so complex trauma complex,
Dominique: trauma. See there
Shahem: there is [00:27:00] big T trauma and little T
Dominique: trauma. Okay. Let's Talk about
Dominique: big and little T. Okay.
Shahem: Big T trauma is trauma that, think of it like events.
Shahem: It's typically like a before and after, like a natural disaster. It was a before the natural disaster. And how you're impacted is the after, right? Like a sexual assault, that's a before and after event. These are significant events that, have a before and after, and that can severely impact you.
Shahem: Cause your emotional distress, impact your daily functioning, your mood all that good jazz. And little t trauma is the little moments that we accrue throughout life, throughout the days that don't necessarily have a before and after, after. And that's more complex. So complex trauma is getting bullied on a daily basis, right?
Shahem: Mm-hmm. Like getting berated at home, not [00:28:00] having the proper space to emote or be nurtured through emotions. As a child, it is. The arguments your parents had not yours specifically, but like parents in general. Like if you grew up in an environment where your parents argued openly, like witnessing that frequently, that is complex trauma.
Shahem: These things impact us, but they aren't necessarily tethered to a specific image or event because it's an accumulation of
Dominique: It's like a bunch of small things that add up right over time that accumulate.
Shahem: Absolutely. Those are the complex things and complex. So,
Shahem: Post-traumatic stress disorder is basically a disorder where big T events happen and it impacts your ability to function. Complex PTSD is the little things that accrue over your life. They affect the way that. You process and view the [00:29:00] world. Early childhood maladaptive schemas, for example, are ideas that are deeply ingrained into the way that you view the world.
Shahem: These are schemas that are implanted in part by traumatic experiences that can be big or little, right? If you are bullied constantly, you may have a difficult time trusting other people, for example. But yeah, that's pretty much how trauma happens in, if you wanted to connect it back to having, say, a sibling who is struggling with addiction, what that can look like is those moments where those few moments or multiple moments where your trust could be, for example, violated or where you have experienced the other shoe dropping and you're anxious now.
Shahem: Because of that trauma, that accumulation of trauma that, wow, this is something that can happen. And this is a schema that you have, like a way that you see [00:30:00] the,
Dominique: it's like a story that you tell
Shahem: Exactly.
Dominique: right? To like, go through the, go through life or go through the world.
Dominique: It's just like, yeah, I remember my, my therapist did this with me once. She, one of the things that shows up for me a lot is like quote, like, not feeling good enough or like
Shahem: imposter syndrome,
Dominique: right. And we talk about like the first time that I felt that way as a kid. Like what was the scenario? What was the experience?
Dominique: Who was the person or the. Situation that made me feel not good enough. And I think where we, she kind of like broke down schemas as like stories that we
Shahem: Mm-hmm.
Dominique: and how those stories like show up in our siblings or with our relationships or how we might perceive other people, I think has been really helpful to like, understand more about Big T and little T.
Dominique: Yeah. I'm gonna use that from now on and I'll coin you.
Shahem: it's not my work at
Dominique: all. Okay. But how it shows up. Yeah. So I think that was like a very helpful like, breakdown for siblings that are listening. One of the things I wanna talk about is why [00:31:00] we gravitate towards people that hurt us.
Dominique: And we talked a little bit about that earlier. I was talking about my past relationships, but like. how those schemas kind of carry on in adulthood. Like are there stories that we kind of create for ourselves, whether it's with our siblings or with our partners or other relationships that just continue as we get older?
Shahem: Yeah. I mean,
Shahem: I think of the distortions, right? I don't know if you're familiar with like cognitive distortions, but cognitive distortions are also like just ways in which P view the world. Like I don't think of them any differently than I think of like the early like childhood maladaptive schemas. But when you grow up in environments where you are processing through the little teen traumas that accumulate over time, it makes a lot of sense for you to gravitate towards the environments and the people who remind you of those things because that is [00:32:00] just what you've been familiar.
Shahem: It's familiar, and I will say people are comfortable. With it. Comfortable. Not in a derogatory way. People are comfortable because that's what they know. Comfortable. Exactly. And the brain, the human brain naturally tries to do any and everything to create a sense of safety and normalcy. So it makes sense.
Shahem: And it's like bonds and love that you're familiar with, if that makes sense.
Dominique: like how those schemas can show up in adulthood and like how exactly like it plays a role in the types of relationships that we.
Dominique: Decide to pursue whether they're romantic or like friends and family. And I think that's exactly it. Like we crave the things that seem
Shahem: Yeah.
Dominique: predictable or seem safe. Even if it's not safe, it just seems like it's something that we've become accustomed to,
Dominique: Is that Yeah.
Shahem: Yeah. But also just like. Kids, when you're a kid, the way [00:33:00] you process the world is so vastly different than how you process it as an adult.
Shahem: And a lot of the times we are not taught as children how to grieve like properly.
Shahem: And because a lot of people think grieving is something that's just like innate. Like you should be born knowing how to do it or how to process emotions. And the reality is a lot of, even the study of emotions is like fairly new in the grand scheme of humanity.
Shahem: So learning how to process them is something that you, we all have to like do. So I say the best way for you, if you find yourself in a situation where you are noticing a pattern of being kind of caught up in this wave of being in relationships with people that hurt you. Mm-hmm. I would wanna assess the pattern, but.
Shahem: Really learn how to process those emotions that come with it and how to [00:34:00] process your own emotions because that will allow the grieving process to happen happen a little quicker if you ask me because Pete Walker, who actually I believe he coined the term complex, PTSD, he talks about like grieving and what is required to grieve.
Shahem: And feeling your feelings is like the main thing. It is the foundation of being able to grieve properly. One of my favorite methods that I talk about all the time is like the rain method for processing feelings. Because a lot of people just assume
Shahem: everybody who is emotionally intelligent just knew how to process feelings from jump.
Shahem: And the reality is much like riding a bike, it can feel like that over time when you practice enough. But somebody had to teach you how to ride a bike.
Dominique: That's so true. Yeah. And it's like, as you're talking about emotional intelligence, I think a lot of the times, especially siblings can feel like you're constantly reading the room and I [00:35:00] feel like that state, like that hypervigilance of like always being on edge, like seeing how someone's moving, how they're acting, how people are talking, I feel like that also comes from like maybe all the Big T's and little t's that have like stacked up over time is just trying to figure out how to respond because you're so used to the unpredictability of other
Shahem: Mm-hmm.
Dominique: So I think. Definitely emotional intelligence is like a huge thing, but I think a lot of the times the reasons why people are emotionally intelligent can definitely be a little different from person to person too.
Shahem: For sure. I think I would say hyper vigilance Is an aspect, being able to observe is an aspect of emotional intelligence, but hypervigilance is probably indicative of a need to be introspective and to find that balance between your external world and your internal world and being able to quell and process through anxiety.
Shahem: Right. Which is [00:36:00] easier said than done, child. Trust me, I know all of this is easier said than done. We, we often talk about this like, it's just so flippant, but it, it is really hard work. It's lifelong work. Grief is like lifelong. It's something that will have to do no matter what stage of life we're at.
Shahem: So,
Shahem: yeah,
Dominique: Yeah.
Dominique: I feel like the siblings that are listening, like you don't just wake up like identifying what all your big
Shahem: trauma.
Dominique: and little traumas are like I feel like a lot of these experiences happen like in the shower where you're thinking or like your bedtime thoughts, right?
Dominique: It's like you're ruminating where there's been a specific like scenario or conversation that you had and it's like, why did it go down that way? Or like, why did I react the way I did? I think it's like that you kind of just hit on this. It's like that awareness level first and then I think you can go ahead and decide, okay, like what's the best way for me to actually approach this, move on from it, address a person, whatever it is.
Dominique: I think it's like you have that awareness and I think that way you [00:37:00] can start to respond instead of react. Yeah. I know I was always coming from a place of reacting or coming from a place that of like fear, especially when it came to my brother. Right? Like or for other siblings that are listening. If you have a loved one that's struggling with addiction.
Dominique: You're constantly worried about like their state of wellbeing. And I think when you move from a place of fear, you start to make decisions that are kind of irrational or not the best for you. And it's always rooted in like what's best for the other
Shahem: Yeah. And I think fear is one of those things that can drive people apart really quickly too. It's also really easy to build resentment when you are constantly making decisions in connection to other people out of fear.
Shahem: And I call resentment the great odor because it erodes every relationship it touches. So also being able to process through your emotions, help you to deal with the resentment, which I'm sure everybody who's dealt with a loved one who has substance use issues like you, [00:38:00] there's a certain, that's
Dominique: a lot of anger.
Shahem: Anger, resentment, like disappointment, shame, embarrassment. Oh, you name it.
Shahem: You name it. All of it like an onion. Everybody. It's
Dominique: Yeah.
Shahem: Shouts out to Shrek. But yeah, like just processing through all of that, it's difficult. It is really difficult work. Like, like I said, it's lifelong.
Dominique: Yeah. So for siblings or for family members that are listening and like they have that loved one who's in recovery and maybe they're like hoping for the best, but expecting the worst because they've felt like they've been like let down time and time again.
Dominique: And I'll speak for myself. Like I mentioned, my brother has gone to rehab or to different programs many times and he's left for different reasons. And this is the longest he's ever been sober. And like even right now, like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, like I'm waiting to get a phone call that he decided to skip out on treatment for whatever reason.
Dominique: Or you know, maybe like things aren't going well and he's thinking about [00:39:00] leaving like. What advice would you even give me? Or like other people in a similar boat where they're feeling that way? because it's scary.
Shahem: I'm gonna sound like such a stereotypical therapist right now. So let everybody, please forgive me for saying this, but you have to practice mindfulness. Mm-hmm. Grounding yourself in the present is the present is the only moment that exists right now. So staying here will help. The more you practice grounding yourself, the less you can stop, you know, trying to predict the future.
Shahem: I tell my clients all the time, you're not Madam Cleo. You do not know the future. I don't even think she did. So it makes sense for you to, to have your concerns and your worries.
Shahem: Try not to live in your concerns and your worries. That's, it's easier to do that when you learn how to ground yourself. I tell my clients also, [00:40:00] you can visit the past, but you can't live there.
Shahem: Like, you cannot build a house in the past. So latching onto all of your experiences, it doesn't necessarily help you to make the most informed ones, right? Because you have to provide the space for things to change and for people to grow, including yourself, right? So you can visit that past to like, kind of like take quick stock, like, okay, like things like this has, has happened.
Shahem: What can I do to make sure if it did happen that I will be able to take care of myself? But latching onto it to the point where you're like, yeah, this is gonna happen. This is like, I need to wait for the, that's not the healthiest approach. So the reality is like.
Shahem: when
Shahem: you visit and you ground yourself so you're not in the past or the present.
Shahem: It allows for you to not overthink about it to the point where it's consuming. Yeah, true. Your life.
Dominique: Yeah, it's true. And it's [00:41:00] also like I feel like I'm very big on like energy. It's like manifesting negativity too.
Dominique: I feel like if you just keep putting it out there, like
Dominique: you
Dominique: don't need to do that. But also like as you're talking, we kind of talked about you can't control others and like boundaries and whatnot. And I think as you're talking it's like you can't control what's gonna happen, right? Whether he decides to leave treatment or whatever his progress is or lack thereof.
Dominique: But you can decide like, okay, if it makes you feel better, like what's the worst case scenario and like how can you maybe like plan for it.
Dominique: So I think that that will help create some kind of like security in the situation.
Shahem: And this goes back to even the beginning, right? Like the cohesion versus enmeshment. Yeah. Like. Enmeshment is I need to make sure he's doing what he needs to do the right thing. Cohesion to me is this is disappointing. I want the best for my brother, but this is his life.
Shahem: I can introduce him to resources. I can be a soft place for him to land [00:42:00] when absolutely need be, but he gets to make decision and and choice decisions and choices for his own life.
Dominique: Yeah, that's true. It's like being able to like take that step back
Dominique: too. And
Dominique: it's funny that we're talking about this 'cause it's like the spiraling that I just did. It's like, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? And like, how can I create a plan? I feel like that spiraling duration shortens like with like more practice too, and like more awareness around like your situation or like why you're approaching things a certain way.
Dominique: Like I feel like maybe like a year or two ago, I would've like spiraled for like days. But I feel like if I can shorten that spiraling time to minutes, it helps me like close the gap. Like understanding why things are happening and understanding more about like my past.
Shahem: yeah. And I think it's a great thing that's, that it even takes time, right? Because I'm a firm believer that most foundations like that last long take time to build.
Dominique: build. I agree with that.
Shahem: Yeah. And I'm, I'm just happy that you've been able to find that.
Dominique: Yeah.
Shahem: yeah.[00:43:00]
Dominique: Yeah, definitely. It's, it's, it's tough when you think about like how like your body like holds onto trauma and like how it shows up and like all these different like conversations and we talked a lot about like our trauma with like our siblings or with our family members, our Big T's and little T's and how they might show up in our life.
Dominique: But there's also like this concept, like inherited trauma that we might not even be aware of. Could you explain like what exactly that means and we're like, how that might show up for different people based on like their life experiences,
Shahem: inherited trauma like epigenetics?
Dominique: I guess like more like that generational trauma, like how things get passed down around like, maybe it's like your parents or grandparents and like how they're undealt with.
Shahem: Yeah.
Dominique: Issues or their maybe lack of awareness around certain things can impact you presently?
Shahem: Yeah. Oh absolutely. I feel like I'm talking about enmeshment a lot, but like for example in people [00:44:00] who come from enmeshed families, that enmeshment go can be traced back normally for generations. Like that doesn't just pop up out of the blue.
Shahem: That is normally a result of the way that a family dynamic works, even extended family. But yeah, like when parents don't resolve their emotional issues before they have children, they can easily pass those issues down to the children. And I'm not saying. That anybody is even necessarily at fault. I think it's a larger societal issue about how we don't really prioritize processing through trauma as we do other things in our society.
Shahem: Yeah, and I think, there are so many examples or ways that trauma can be passed down from generation to generation, and it's just,
Dominique: There's some like subtle signs that like might show up in everyday life that the average [00:45:00] person like might not think about.
Dominique: maybe they're operating in a way that they are because of like way things have been done historically or like how their parents have operated and like maybe they just, or maybe it just shows up at work for them that they haven't really realized it before.
Dominique: That that's part of like either en mesh or that intergenerational trauma showing up in like their everyday life.
Shahem: Subtle signs that somebody is operating from a space of like intergenerational trauma.
Shahem: there are so many examples. Mm-hmm. ButWhen parents do the extreme opposite of their, parents.
Dominique: Oh. Like when they say, I'm never gonna be like my mom, or I'm never gonna be like my dad or whoever.
Shahem: Yeah. So like for example, if someone grows up with a very, very strict parent who was like hypervigilant, who was super hands on, who was like rigid and hyper protective.
Shahem: They grew up in that environment and felt very restricted. They could in turn, if they did the [00:46:00] opposite of that, parent, they could not enact enough structure in their children's lives and those children could grow up feeling very neglected in like they're not cared for.
Shahem: And you know, in that those children could grow to resent their parents the same way their parent resented their parents. But what's underneath of all of that is a lack of balance and autonomy One
Shahem: next. Exactly.
Dominique: It's like, yeah, that's true.
Shahem: So that's one way that things are passed down. Typically, it doesn't have to look exactly the same, but it comes back to the same issue of autonomy.
Shahem: Like what does it mean to like really respect a person's autonomy in this family? Whether it is like, you did not create the structure for me to learn how to be autonomous and I had to figure a lot of things out because you were too loose. Or whether it's like I did not have the freeDominiueiniue [00:47:00] to explore any other way of being autonomous because you were too rigid.
Shahem: There is alcoholism. Sometimes alcoholism can skip a generation.
Shahem: When there's a generation of people who's like, I've seen my family drinking. I don't like that. They, they, they've been drinking. I see what drinking can do. But then the next generation, like their next generation is drinking and has similar issues.
Shahem: And it's because nobody felt the pain in the family or process through exactly what created the drinking to begin with. And a lot of the times when it comes to intergenerational trauma and how it's passed down, the issue is that people are not grieving and processing their emotions properly.
Shahem: Um, nobody's really having the conversations. I actually reread this book. " It didn't start with us" which is a book about epigenetics and how trauma is passed down, ironically, from generation to generation.
Shahem: he basically talks about a family member that isn't necessarily spoken about the, the person in the family [00:48:00] that the family is ashamed of,
Shahem: like that
Dominique: like swept under the rug or it's just not like a topic of
Shahem: Exactly. Like everybody has that one cousin who like, nobody talks about, but they know they did that thing.
Shahem: Yeah. Something's off. Yeah. They did the thing.
Dominique: And yeah,
Shahem: that can show up like throughout generations of a family until it's addressed. He actually goes into a lot more depth in the book because
Dominique: I'll link that in the show notes that in case people wanna
Shahem: Yeah. The book. Okay, cool. Because he talks about a lot of cases like this one really interesting case.
Shahem: The dad had accidentally caused a fire when he was a kid, and it led to the death of his brother. And when his son was the same age, around the same age. His son was having like these night terrorists basically where he would wake up feeling like he was on fire and there was no way to diagnose it outside of psychosomatic symptoms.
Shahem: So when he went to [00:49:00] the author slash psychologist who was writing the book, and the father actually talked to his son about that experience of like him accidentally causing this fire, all of the psychosomatic symptoms for the kid went away. And it's like being able to actually have like challenging conversations, grieve to talk about the things, the traumas.
Shahem: Yeah. That is definitely healing. And I think a lot of the times that generational stuff is passed down as a lack of healing and a lack of having open and honest conversations about what people are feeling, like leaning into the role, for example, of caretaker as opposed to saying. I'm scared. I'm fucking terrified. Yeah. Or like not being able to say like, I don't feel like I'm being nurtured and I feel like I have to show up like this in order for you to care about me. Yeah. To family, for example. Like those conversations [00:50:00] prevent that passing down a trauma, but that trauma gets passed down when people are not having these conversations. Yeah, that's so true.
Shahem: Are not given the space to grieve in a healthy way. And that's part of why I also encourage people often talk to your loved ones if they're open, if anybody will listen, talk to them about this type of
Dominique: them. Yeah, definitely. And I think even for like parents that are listening too, it's like don't be scared. You know, when your kids can understand what you're saying, especially if they're younger, it's like you can break things down to them in a way that is digestible depending on like their age bracket.
Dominique: But I also think like when we start to push things under the rug and we know that there's trauma in their family or we know that there's like this crazy thing that happened or the kid might understand parts of it and we don't wanna talk about it, I feel like talk about it. Yeah. Like kids pick up on a lot of signals.
Dominique: Before substances even like picked up. It's like they're picking up on like your behavior. They're picking up on like the way you're moving and the way you're talking. And I think if you can explain like if there is [00:51:00] intergenerational like alcoholism, it's like, Dad did this or mom did this, or like There's this thing that went on in our family and like it's showing up this way. I don't know if this is true, but I feel like if you talk about like alcohol use or drug use and how it's been in the family, I feel like kids can make a more of a conscious effort to maybe not pick up or you can talk about it in a way that like makes sense for them rather than just like act like it never actually happened.
Shahem: Absolutely. Kids are like extremely smart. Like, they're like sponges. They absorb all of the information in their environment and I think having open and honest, honest conversations mm-hmm. Within, you know, the age range. Right. Of course. Age appropriate conversations with children, it really does help.
Dominique: definitely. We've unpacked a lot. And I wanna start talking about the importance of like, healing for yourself and also deciding how you want to rebuild relationships if you so choose to [00:52:00] do so.
Dominique: A lot of families or siblings in particular might wanna repair relationships when their sibling is in recovery. That might not always be possible. You know, every relationship or situation is gonna be very different and some families decide to cut others off. Some families decide to like lean in and support throughout their recovery.
Dominique: What advice would you give to someone who's listening and deciding, like, I don't know what kind of relationship I wanna have, like what should I do?
Shahem: Yeah, I think that's, we talked about it a little bit already, but I do think people should take the time to actually assess what it is that they want.
Shahem: Like really truly give yourself the space to ask what do I want? Yeah. And that doesn't have to come from, 'cause a lot of times people hear that question like, what do I want? And they come to the conclusion. I don't know the answer to that question when I'm asking this. I'm asking people to go a little deeper.
Shahem: Like, what do I need? Maybe what do I need is a better question. There
Dominique: I like that.
Shahem: Your [00:53:00] core attachment needs, right? Think of those like, I want to be loved, I want to be heard, I want to be respected. I wanna feel prioritized. Like those type of needs that all human beings have in one and crave. Like how does the relationship with whoever you're trying to repair one with, how can you in that relationship have those things?
Shahem: And if you know that you want to be, for example, loved in the relationship between you and your sibling, but you know that when your sibling is screaming at you in, in your face because they don't feel like, like they're emotionally hurt or they're in pain, and as a result of being in emotional pain have turned towards substances, you could set the boundary like I've.
Shahem: Want to be loved in this relationship, but I can't do this relationship when you're screaming at me like this because I do love you and I [00:54:00] love me too and it makes me hurt. And I want to have a conversation with you of course, but I can't have that screaming.
Dominique: I love that you've framed what do I want into, what do I need? Yeah. Because I think a lot of times what we want, what we need conflict, and especially when I think about like what I want for my relationship with my brother, I wanna be able to be there for him whenever is needed.
Dominique: Right. He wrote me the really cute letter over the holidays saying, I, I've always been there for him. And I'm like, while all that is true, it was exhausting. And it came with a lot of sleepless nights where I didn't really know like what was gonna happen over the next few days.
Dominique: A lot of unpredictability. And would I do it all over again? No, I would do it the same way I did because I did the best I could with the information I had. But moving forward, I feel like I would want that stability. Like I would want to feel safe, and if that means like having to put boundaries in place, I can still, like you said, be there for him or be there for whoever.
Dominique: But having parameters in place where I can feel like I'm protecting my safe [00:55:00] space, like mentally and physically.
Shahem: absolutely.
Dominique: Well, I really appreciate that. And I also think for siblings that are listening, understanding that it's okay to move out of survival mode. It's gonna look different for everyone, but it's not always black and white.
Dominique: So that gray
Shahem: never, it's almost never black and white. Yeah. That's the, the beauty of it and oh my god, finding a balance is what matters. The balance between you being worried about the future and like the past, using the information of what you've learned before.
Shahem: Like it's all a, a balancing act and it's okay if you, you don't have it figured out or perfect each and every time. Like that's okay.
Dominique: Very helpful reminder. It's like waiting for the other shoe to drop is not gonna stop the shoe from dropping, but you can definitely like live your life in spite of it. Exactly.
Shahem: Perfect way to put that.
Shahem: I will say grace is really important when you're navigating something so unpredictable, like [00:56:00] life in general.
Shahem: Yeah. But especially when you add into it like navigating addiction. When you're learning all of these like things about like mental health, like boundaries and epigenetics, whatever you wanna call it. Like, just be graceful with yourself. You have to give yourself grace. You have to be compassionate with yourself.
Shahem: Self-compassion is actually so crucial and essential to grieving because you don't grieve if you are not giving yourself compassion.
Shahem: I always ask people like, if you grew up in one house, if there are two houses, one kid grew up in an environment where they were telling that kid, you are perfectly fine with expressing yourself emotionally.
Shahem: You are doing the best you can. I'm gonna love you no matter what is going on, and just do your best and I'm gonna support you. Versus somebody who grew up in an environment where they're being told every day that they're doing too much, [00:57:00] that they're a sack of shit for having a bad day.
Shahem: Which of those two people is more likely to grow up and be better at grieving?
Dominique: Yeah, it's like the emotional privilege of it all of having like the stability in your family or not. Yeah. And I was talking to, again, my therapist about this, and I had a very complicated relationship with my mom where I was, there's a lot of like, animosity and I just felt like, you know what, I'm gonna start to like learn how to like, let that go.
Dominique: Because at the end of the day, my mom is going through life for the first time too. Like, she's doing the best she can as a mom, as a parent. Like this is all new to her too. Like, these are all new experiences. Like we need to give ourselves grace to other people in our lives too. Like, not just like we're all doing life for the first time.
Shahem: Yeah. And there is a balance there too, where it's like I can hold you
Dominique: accountable.
Dominique: Yes,
Dominique: Absolutely.
Shahem: And also
Dominique: Give yourself, give them grace. Right? So it's balance. It's about the balance. The balance in the gray zone,
Shahem: balance zone,
Shahem: The balance in the gray zone. I like that. That's,
Dominique: Well, thank you Shahem. I really
Shahem: course appreciate it.
Dominique: It.
Dominique: Thank you for taking the time [00:58:00] to talk about your expertise and also shedding some new perspectives and like a big T and little T that's my new favorite. I know our listeners really appreciate it.
Shahem: Thank you so much. I appreciate you for having me.
Dominique: Thanks for listening to this episode of For Love of Recovery. If you enjoyed this episode or know somebody who might, please leave a comment and share it. You can also join our Facebook group, siblings for Love of Recovery. If you're looking to have deeper conversations around your siblings drug or alcohol addiction. And remember whether there's hope, there's healing.