Cutting them off isn't your only option: How CRAFT supports you and your loved one through their addiction (with Jane Macky)
About the episode
Is Al-Anon and 12-Step the best approach for families navigating their loved one’s addiction? The pressure to issue ultimatums or cut them off entirely can feel like the only path forward. But what if the advice you've been given is outdated, incomplete, not for you, or just wrong?
In this episode, we’ll unpack what families are told about loving someone through addiction, and how to move beyond the 12-step approach used in Al-Anon and Nar-Anon, and how CRAFT (Community Reinforcement and Family Training) provides families with real, actionable tools to spark change.
Guest: Jane Mackey, CEO and founder of We The Village and a certified family coach
This episode will help you
Move beyond the “enabling” label: how to tell the difference between hurting and helping
See how to respond to their substance use without losing control
Understand why cutting someone off makes it harder for them to get help and can reduce your influence over their recovery
Episode links
About: We The Village offers evidence-based online programs proven to get families through addiction recovery. Their approach is inspired by and developed in collaboration with Dr. Robert J. Meyers, creator of the leading evidence-based family method, Community Reinforcement and Family Training (CRAFT). The programs have been designed with experts and achieve reliable results validated in randomized clinical trials funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA).
We The Village is offering listeners 20% off their programs with code FLOR at wethevillage.co
Resources
💬 JOIN OUR SIBLING-FOCUSED COMMUNITY
Join our Facebook group, Siblings For Love of Recovery to:
Connect with other siblings
Share your own story in a safe space
Support for navigating the journey
🤳 CONNECT WITH FOR LOVE OF RECOVERY
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/forloveofrecovery
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61561542956095
-
Jane Macky: [00:00:00] 46% of Americans have a loved one struggling with addiction. And then the other crazy stat is that like around 10% get treatment.
Jane Macky: So that means like 90% of people with a substance use disorder are just flailing their families. And people that love them are
Jane Macky: like also flailing. Like, yeah. Everyone that is facing addiction in a loved one should learn craft.
Dominique: Welcome to FLOR for Love of Recovery, where I'm your host, Dominique Dajer. Sibling relationships can be so unique, but they can become more complex when there's drug or alcohol use involved. If you find yourself questioning how to help, you're not alone.
Dominique: Join me on this journey in restoring hope and healing.
Dominique: When a loved one is struggling with addiction there is this feeling of helplessness and not being sure what the right approach is, what you should do, what you shouldn't do. Rock bottom and tough love is definitely an approach that has worked for a lot of people, but it's not the approach that works for everyone.
Dominique: Today we're [00:01:00] gonna talk to Jane Macky, who is the CEO and founder of We The Village. And she's also a family coach. And I'm really excited to talk about how there is another way to love someone through their substance use disorder.
Jane Macky: My favorite topic, yes.
Dominique: I know it's a big topic for a lot of us, and it's a very important one, and it's one that's definitely understated in the addiction and recovery community.
Dominique: So I'm really excited to get into that today.
Jane Macky: Me too.
Dominique: So I'd love to start off with asking you to give us a little bit of color around what exactly you do. What is we, the village and how did you get started with that work?
Jane Macky: I was working in the city just around the corner from here.
Jane Macky: I was. This really fast-paced mobile advertising agency. My colleague at the time and best friend who I absolutely admired was a mentor to me.
Jane Macky: I could see that he was beginning to struggle and we sort of lived this quite sort of fast-paced work hard, play hard, young in New York City [00:02:00] lifestyle. It wasn't until there was one night, it was 9:00 PM we had to pitch. The next day I'm thinking about ordering dinner and he pulls out a line of cocaine and I started to think, Hey, this isn't happening outside the bounds of work.
Jane Macky: It's starting to bleed. And I was starting to get really worried about him. And then you have on one hand, like this really advanced sort of digital, creative strategies that we're creating. And then I'd go online and be like, how to help friend addiction, cocaine. And there was nothing.
Jane Macky: There were like rehab brochure sites, and I'm like, I can't even talk to him about this. I'm not there yet.
Dominique: Was this like a reoccurring thing or was this like a one-off situation where you noticed this is not something that should be happening, like around the workplace?
Dominique: Or was this something that he was consistently like, under the influence and decided to like, look into
Jane Macky: it was more like a pattern of struggling behavior. So there could be days that, or like times where he wouldn't make it into work. He was very late all the time. He'd show up [00:03:00] to the critical client, meetings and do a great job. But there were other things on the sort of sidelines, like not looking so great.
Jane Macky: Obviously I really cared about this person and to me it was the first sort of instance of it's not just someone on the side of the street who I have no idea what their story is. This smart, capable person who was doing well at work most of the time but struggling personally. So I started to try and figure out how do I say something? How do I help this person? I went to Al-Anon Narran on meetings. I was told this message of like, you are not even a blood relative.
Jane Macky: You don't have to be in relationship with this person. Just get out. It just didn't resonate with me. There was something like, a proactive young sort of career minded person. I was like, I can do things, what can I do? And it frustrated me so much.
Jane Macky: I was told to like, go to therapy. I met with a lovely therapist, but she didn't know [00:04:00] anything about what it's like to love someone struggling. It took quite some time to find out about craft. And when I did, I just knew this makes sense. Like it resonates. These are actionable things that I can take home, I can say I can do. And long story short, that's like where we, the village came from. I think the more I learned about what addiction is like and just how it is solvable, it made me like really passionate about trying to get the message out to families of like, there are things you can do. If we had the tools and if we didn't feel so fearful and ashamed if we could talk about it, that we'd actually be able to make addiction something that is addressable quicker
Jane Macky: and so we, the Village is a series of programs and training for families to learn craft-based skills, either on their own, sort of in online [00:05:00] curriculums or with coaching from certified craft clinicians. So people that really know their staff have tons of hours under their belt, most likely have personal experience and yeah, can really help apply the principles of behavior change to your situation because everyone we work with is unique, but the stories have parallels
Dominique: the same elements and
Jane Macky: Yeah. And so we're trying to help them understand the principles but then apply to their nuance situation. So yeah that's what we do at WEA Village. We also train professionals in the method.
Jane Macky: 'cause we realize that part of the reason it's not getting to families is that professionals also aren't aware enough about it. Long story short,
Dominique: No, that makes sense. Not a long story. I think it's a very important story.
Dominique: Similarly to you, I started going to Nar-Anon groups with my mom a couple of years ago, And I went in with that mentality where give the homework gimme the assignment and I'm gonna make sure like it gets done and we're gonna quote, fix my brother and fix our family [00:06:00] situation.
Dominique: And that's not what it was about. It was very much about. It was focused on me, which is obviously very important. But I still left a lot of meetings feeling like I need something to like, grasp onto, I need
Dominique: something to
Dominique: do. And part of that is like me just being like a doer and like I, I thrive in like those kinds of environments.
Dominique: But agreed. I feel like a lot of the times family, families just feel hopeless and they're looking for something, anything that they feel will help move the needle forward in like their loved ones recovery or just making sure that they're there for them in a way that like works for them. So I love that you guys are actually working on providing them with those tools and resources and doing it in a way that works for their specific family.
Dominique: I wanna know a little bit more about what you've seen and why do families feel that there are these two specific differences. There's this idea of quote, tough love or cutting them off, and there's this new approach around craft, growing in an evidence-based treatment.[00:07:00]
Dominique: And you started to allude to the fact that a lot of medical professionals or people in the space don't really know about
Dominique: it.
Dominique: Do you feel like there's another reason why families might not be gravitating towards craft as much as traditional 12 step work?
Jane Macky: Yeah, I think the 12 step definitely has benefits. It's free, it's widespread. It's more available, more accessible in some ways. We've tried to make like part of our design and our DNA is making it craft more accessible, but just inherent in the way that AA has done such a great job at getting out there, building community and the Nar-Anon, Al-Anon sort of follows that similar pattern but.
Jane Macky: I think that We inherited this cultural narrative that like, addicts are bad, even like now we say substance use disorder. It's this contrast of trying to bring more understanding and empathy towards the situation. And it's also so maddening, to watch someone you love [00:08:00] continually like hurt themselves.
Jane Macky: Like it's hard to make sense of, it's frustrating. You feel like you're banging your head against the wall it's a lot easier to pick up a catchy tag line, like tough love. And then you hear stories of how people did need to like be totally cut off. And that's like they cling to that as like how they managed to
Dominique: yeah. That, that's actually like a great point. People are applying the resources that work for them in those moments. Maybe 12 step works for you for the majority of your life or for supporting your loved one. And then maybe it doesn't work for you or maybe it does and you can start to integrate some of those models as more and more resources are starting to enter the ether.
Dominique: Well,
Jane Macky: Well, And even if we think about parenting, I have a toddler. We're thinking about Oh yeah, like positive reinforcement, like craft, which I'm sure we'll talk about. But if we think about our parents' generation or my now husband is the colleague that I was talking about earlier, his parents, probably had more of that tough love.
Jane Macky: Like, 'Cause that was also the [00:09:00] parenting style.
Dominique: Yeah,
Dominique: it's true. The cultural differences
Jane Macky: told off, like smacked or I don't know. But it's really different today, and I think we're more open to it as a culture, but we still have that hangover.
Dominique: Do you know like where that tough love narrative came from? Like, Was it just like a lack of information around addiction and substance use disorder?
Jane Macky: I know there's a book called Tough Love. And if I understand correctly, the purpose was more like this kind of boundaries and care like this constant sort of struggle of how do we kinda hold boundaries and care?
Dominique: I also think like the definition of like, tough love has changed over time. Tough love is about having boundaries with compassion and care and still being firm in like wherever you stand, whatever your values are. Whereas tough love, I think even just the phrase itself, it's just sounds very harsh and very cold.
Dominique: And maybe it's like having the boundaries, but without the
Jane Macky: Yeah. that's where word choice is so
Jane Macky: important. Absolutely.
Dominique: Absolutely.
Jane Macky: if we truly Yeah. understood the intention of the book that was written, [00:10:00] and, the author meant more what you're saying, but with something that's like a little bit vague, confusing, like tough love, it's not the best kind of framing because it's not specific enough for me to really know what to do with it.
Dominique: Right. That makes sense. And like we're talking about like tough love and like the challenges with that phrase itself, but there are also other terms like helping versus supporting versus enabling.
Dominique: And those can all get mumbled, jumbled in conversations or get thrown into conversation out of context. How would you define what those individual words mean, helping, supporting, enabling, and like what does that look like in a craft applied
Jane Macky: approach?
Jane Macky: First of all, I would just say throw the word enabling out. Okay. I don't believe that family members who love someone that's struggling with addiction should feel bit bad about anything they're doing. I think you're thrown in a chaotic situation and it's totally natural to love someone and, and be pulled even more towards them when they're struggling.
Jane Macky: And, again, [00:11:00] like addiction, sense. When you watch it, you're like, why are you hurting yourself? You're getting in trouble, you're losing your job. It has these real consequences. So enabling anything that feels, codependency, enabling, I'm
Jane Macky: like out, I guess like or
Dominique: like guilt
Jane Macky: yeah.
Jane Macky: and from a craft framework, what we look at is what is useful and what is not useful. And so we start with the craft principles and then we experiment with the family members that we work with to apply it and see, did that get us the result we want? And we're making small tweaks. So often it's hard for people 'cause we're slowing down.
Jane Macky: We're like, we can't change things overnight. We can actually make a lot of change in three months, which is a short amount of time for folks Absolutely. Like us that have been loving people for a really long time with this. But yeah I think, we all influence each other all the time. Craft is about influencing in the most effective ways to [00:12:00] increase healthy and sober behavior and decrease harmful and using behavior. And so that's really what we're focused on. That's, how we're helping and
Jane Macky: supporting. yeah.
Jane Macky: But it's very intentional and really focused on behavior
Dominique: Yeah. absolutely. And I love that it's like very much like a family involved approach, right? It's not something that you're expecting to happen overnight, which I think a lot of programs with like 12 steps that requires ultimatums and boundaries that result in like a very specific change happening within a very short amount of time that aren't always realistic depending on where the person is in their substance use.
Jane Macky: Yeah. and What you're talking about now, it makes me think of like the confrontational intervention, like the series on tv. That's, you know, so dramatic and that's what it is like for a lot of people I know that interventions over time have, have softened in some ways as well, but they're really focused on a moment.
Jane Macky: They're still largely focused on an ultimatum, saying, Hey, if you don't stop or if you don't go to treatment, [00:13:00] I'm not gonna be in relationship with you. And what I see on the flip side of that is resentment, shame, like disconnection. Whereas what we wanna do is be collaborative and say, how do I tap into what's gonna motivate you to want to make a change?
Jane Macky: Because I also, I tell families all the time, I believe this wholeheartedly, that there's a, like a place in that person that wants to stop.
Jane Macky: We wanna connect with that place as much as possible. And then when they're using, we wanna sort of eliminate support of that behavior in strategic ways.
Jane Macky: But it's more like just stepping away and not like adding reinforcement
Dominique: fire too. Yeah.
Dominique: I think a lot of interventions, and like you said, you, they've softened probably over the last couple of years or so, but a lot of them are very confrontational and I think a lot of them just reinforce the shame and the guilt and the fear that person might already be feeling.
Dominique: That is then exacerbated [00:14:00] by. Family or friends coming together and having this intervention.
Dominique: I wanna talk a little bit about what it means to cut someone off and adopt this ideology of like they need to hit their rock bottom.
Dominique: We talked a lot about like boundaries and like what that looks like. I feel like Boundaries are the thing that you create around yourself rather than these ultimatums that you're putting on someone else. What does it say when we are expecting someone else to hit their rock bottom or cut them off and hope that it will incite some kind of change for their substance use?
Jane Macky: Yeah. And again, Some people cite rock bottom is like the reason they changed, right? And they're like, this needed to happen and all this good stuff comes after. But I think what I think about rock bottoms first is that when a family member comes to me, that's the rock bottom. So the family member is my client. And if they are seeing a problem, like this is the point like, let's like not go below that point. Let's [00:15:00] use that as the point of change and go up from there. Before, yeah, you have to lose your job. have a physical like health issue or criminal issue or whatever. So we take that as the rock bottom.
Jane Macky: We really put safety first. So if someone is not alive, they can't recover. And I think that's what's been really scary is like the influx of fentanyl and, substances in the drug pool. So I guess also sidebar. I think that's where the conversation about enabling can be really tricky as well, because helping your loved one get a safer substance I would always
Dominique: the topic of like harm reduction too, right? Which is a very big, That can be like a whole conversation in and of itself.
Dominique: And I think that definitely makes the conversation so much more challenging because the illicit drug supply is constantly evolving. And it is about getting that person to either use less or use safely so that way they can [00:16:00] have a better
Dominique: chance at recovery. Exactly. So they
Dominique: can get to that stabilization point.
Dominique: Yeah.
Jane Macky: I think. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what craft would say a hundred percent because craft is all about. Not cutting off if in craft I cut you off, I can't influence you. So craft is all about, because I'm in relationship with you, there is an inherent influence I have and we can foster that over time.
Jane Macky: Because also what often happens in addiction is you have isolation or like, you know, fighting or, sort of conflict. And so we work to reduce that, to reconnect people so that you have more influence. And so cutting off is like. The opposite of what we want to try to do. Yeah.
Jane Macky: However, my client is the family member in craft and sometimes that gets to the point where you're really struggling, right? Or someone comes to me and they're already so burnt out and in that case we might be saying, Hey, is there someone else in the system that is the person we wanna like work with to [00:17:00] drive change And do you just need
Jane Macky: to take a step back?
Jane Macky: Take a step back. And that's why you're wanting to cut off. 'cause you just cannot handle it anymore. And maybe we work a lot slower with that person and we just work on bringing in some positivity, some like neutral communication until they feel better or they're just not the right person to be the one kind of in
Dominique: facilitating this kind of,
Dominique: yeah. And that's really important. I think as a sibling, not a parent, I'm in a very different position and sometimes I questions am I the right person to actually help my brother through this?
Dominique: Does it require a parent? Does it require some kind of third party that's, unbiased or doesn't really have any, stake in this conversation. And I think that's something that a lot of siblings especially need to consider is are you the best person in your family dynamic or in this person's circle to really support them?
Dominique: And if the answer is no, that's totally okay. But maybe if you have the bandwidth to help them [00:18:00] find the right resource to do that I think is
Jane Macky: Yeah. And, And you, your role might just be being. A friend or being like another
Jane Macky: supporter Yeah. are
Jane Macky: ready
Jane Macky: to Yeah.
Dominique: make a change.
Jane Macky: There's the sense that you can't have a positive relationship or focus on anything positive until the change is happening.
Jane Macky: And with craft, we really wanna focus on bringing more positivity in. We wanna make a sober life feel more worthwhile, and we wanna keep them connected to that idea. So even if you're a person that reflects back, I know you and your heart beyond the addiction that's a really powerful role. But yeah, we look for like who has the most influence of mom or partner.
Dominique: Yeah. No, that makes sense. one of our other podcast episodes from last month, I was having this conversation with my brother and we were talking about how even when he was on and off the street.
Dominique: He said just knowing that you guys were there or knowing that I knew that if I called you, you would answer. That made me feel [00:19:00] better. Now my brother and I have a very good and close relationship, but I think a lot of that came from the work that I really had to do when he was in active addiction and learning how to separate the person who was using substances from Who I know he
Dominique: is. And it's so hard, and a lot of people will argue that you shouldn't separate them because they are one in the same. And while there is a truth to that, I think there's a very big difference in understanding this person who's in crisis and this person who's in survival and addiction from who you know this
Dominique: person to
Dominique: be.
Dominique: Once you can start to do that, you're able to meet that person wherever they are in their substance use or recovery
Jane Macky: Yeah. It's so hard. But yeah, I think craft does a really, really great job of looking at behavior, right? And separating the behavior from the person.
Jane Macky: And I think most people can see that person in there somewhere, and trying to like, hold onto that and work on what's going on in the substance use behavior or take a step back
Dominique: It's [00:20:00] tough. We talked a little bit about how craft is actually applied but I wanna make it really real and tangible for some of our listeners. There might be parents that are listening or siblings who are like, okay, well if my child or my sibling comes home under the influence on like a ranDominique weekday night, and we've had this conversation before what do I do?
Dominique: where They're not quite at their breaking point yet, but they just really don't know how to respond or what kind of boundary to create in that kind of moment. What might a craft informed response look like for a parent or another family member, like a sibling?
Jane Macky: In craft we do a lot of pre-planning and work through all the obstacles. So we'd sort of sit down and be like, okay, what are we gonna do? Plan it all out. What happens if they say this? What are you gonna say? Role play it because we're really trying to help people act differently in the situation. We're not trying to just keep doing the same things which often haven't been working. Some principles that I would [00:21:00] be thinking about would be, it's not helpful to address the behavior directly when.
Jane Macky: If they're high or drunk or using it's much more effective to have the conversation afterwards or before, so like ahead of another time, but afterwards. So in that moment I'd be thinking, how can we help you, my client, manage your frustration? Mm-hmm. Because that's gonna be coming up. So what could be something nice that you'd do for yourself?
Jane Macky: What are you gonna say to your son or, or sibling or loved one? It's probably gonna be something like, Hey, I can see you're high or I can see you're not doing so great. Maybe if you wanna be delicate about it or
Dominique: Depending on
Dominique: the nature of your relationship
Dominique: know
Dominique: in one disclaimer, like for people that are listening, it's like, when we're using these analogies, like during our episodes, we're very mindful of how that information might be perceived.
Dominique: And you would probably have to use the language that sits right. With your loved [00:22:00] one or your family member. Right? Like, If you have a relationship where you can be a little bit more direct, that's probably fine. If you know that this person is very sensitive or you need to speak with caution, like adjust your language
Jane Macky: that
Dominique: you might see fit for your family.
Jane Macky: Yeah. So we're trying to avoid conflict in the moment because it's not gonna be productive. So yeah, if you have to say, looks like you're a bit sleepy or I can see now's not a great time to chat, I'm gonna go to bed.
Jane Macky: Or really often it's like withdrawing attention. Attention is something that is generally reinforcing or rewarding for someone. We're not gonna get into like a long emotional conversation.
Jane Macky: about. We're not gonna make dinner or we're not gonna, maybe we've already made dinner.
Jane Macky: we might just say dinner's there, you can heat it up. We're not gonna do like a special thing to like, take care of them, you know, we wanna check that they're safe if we had any concerns, right? Safety is always first. But yeah, we're going to kind of just try and [00:23:00] separate amicably look after ourselves, and then the next day when ideally both of us are in a relatively good mood, both of us are sober, we might say, Hey, I noticed this happened again.
Jane Macky: Or, based on where you're at in terms of comfortability of like addressing it if it's a kid, we might have to start thinking about curfew or we might be wanting to like. Get curious, curiosity is always a really good place to start.
Jane Macky: If we don't know as much about what's going on. Who are you hanging out with? Like trying to get a bit more information. But yeah we're trying to address it in a calm moment. And ideally what we would try and do is say, how do we set ourselves up for success next time? So I might be trying to get them to sort of brainstorm with me, like, Hey, I could see that, you didn't look so put together when you came home.
Jane Macky: Like, What do you think we could do next Friday night or whatever to make sure that you're feeling okay when you come
Dominique: home.
Dominique: Yeah, I love that. 'cause you're learning more about like what their mental state [00:24:00] is and what might be possibly triggering them or who they're hanging out with or what that circle might look like. That was something like when I started learning about craft was like the concept of motivational interviewing and understanding.
Dominique: Instead of just asking my brother like very direct yes or no questions, really getting
Dominique: to understand
Dominique: like what makes him tick
Dominique: and really understanding what's going on inside his brain. Because when I understood that a little bit more, I could be more compassionate for him, but I could also navigate a conversation in a way that I felt like I could meet him with resources or support or like protect myself and create some kind of boundaries.
Jane Macky: Yeah. And, And I think the yes no is, is so interesting. Like, We often don't need to like confirm that they've been using, you know, you
Jane Macky: don't have to
Jane Macky: ask,
Dominique: are
Dominique: you
Dominique: drunk
Dominique: right now? Or like,
Dominique: oh, you're drunk.
Dominique: You know? Yes, you could. I think we can like skip that part if it's very obvious. But I think just getting to the direct statement of I noticed X, Y, Z and whatever.
Jane Macky: and.
Jane Macky: the more we can get their words [00:25:00] about what they, any like clues about what they might wanna change or what is going on for them that we can use, not like use against them, but it's I wanna know what matters to you so that I can like Yeah. Help you get towards that
Dominique: Guide towards like the right resource
Jane Macky: And sometimes, that won't come out and sometimes it's just about setting the seeds. Hey, I noticed like you were really sluggish waking up after you came home late and like seemed a bit off. How did that feel? I know it's hard to talk about at first, but over time like the more transparent we can be and the more we can show that we're like an empathetic ear, the more likely they're gonna confide in us and the more we can really get to the heart of the matter as opposed to like butting heads over like, the protective side of I need to protect my use because
Dominique: yeah,
Dominique: No, absolutely. That makes sense. And I think even for families that are listening, that if your loved one hasn't admitted or recognized that there is a serious issue or they don't realize that they have a substance use disorder, [00:26:00] I think you could probably take the same or similar approach.
Dominique: And getting to address that with them, would you say that's accurate or would you actually recommend like a different approach if they haven't realized that there's
Jane Macky: No. Yeah, I, I agree. I think that you can address the behaviors. I noticed you came home later than you wanted. I noticed that you were Yeah. Felt sluggish the next day. Or like, relate to school or just like focusing on the behaviors, the things that you can see is often quite helpful. One other thing, and I think that this can be a big like unlocker for people is why do you care so often?
Jane Macky: It can come across as I'm just constantly telling you like that you're not doing the right thing and this behavior is bad and you feel like you're messing up a lot. But by saying something like, I felt quite worried last night 'cause you were stumbling
Dominique: around. That's so true.
Jane Macky: And it's
Jane Macky: less
Dominique: them doing something bad and more about how you feel
Jane Macky: the situation.
Jane Macky: Yeah. And it can really flip a switch for some people because they're like, oh, like you're a human and you're like having a feeling [00:27:00] about. Me and, and this behavior. And the other one is accepting partial responsibility. And I think some people have a hard time with it. And we would never say you have to do this, but like we all play a dynamic, right?
Jane Macky: In a relationship. And so sometimes if we are focused on being effective and getting people to listen to us and take on our ideas about maybe changing, accepting partial responsibility, so that could look like, I know I don't always know how to talk about this or bring this up, or I know like other times I've like yelled I've got angry. And I'm not responsible for the using or choice to choices, but. It's a really hard situation to be in as you know, and you make mistakes all the time and sometimes you don't know till afterwards. Sometimes you just don't have capacity to make a better decision in the moment. But yeah, if we're trying to be effective and communicating and trying to [00:28:00] drive a change towards positive behavior, it can be really helpful to get people on board with you.
Dominique: For me, one of the most important things, and a lot of this is staying calm because these situations can get very heated and they can escalate very quickly. And if you can't stay calm, I think doing the best you can to remove yourself from the situation or like you said, like having some kinda like backup plan for when things get really intense.
Jane Macky: Yes. Yeah.
Jane Macky: Yeah. Definitely exiting if things are getting out of hand or just switching into a listening mode, like I'm no longer contributing to, to something unproductive.
Jane Macky: Hard to do though. And we always say myself and our other coaches are like not easy to do when also they talk about hungry, angry, and tired or for folks struggling with substance use. And same for us, if you're not taking care of your own needs, which we often aren't, right. It's gonna be a lot harder to do.
Dominique: Recognizing like the state of mind that you're in and where your loved one is at even if you're [00:29:00] sober, if you know that you just had a really intense day, like it's probably not the day to like have this conversation, but making sure that you feel that you're taking care of and you're in a safe space, like mentally to be able to do this.
Dominique: It's a lot of work and there are some people who are listening who might be thinking that I don't really wanna do all this work. Something that you learn in 12 Step work is I didn't cause it, I can't it and I can't cure it. And while that is, I think very much true, I think there is a responsibility and there is a role that we can all play if we so choose to.
Dominique: Would you say that craft is putting the burden back on families? Or would you say that it's just another approach?
Jane Macky: I would say that you're doing the work anyway.
Jane Macky: So it is work. Craft is work. We're changing your behavior as the person loving someone in addiction to change the environment around the addiction patterns. It's a lot of work. And that's why I think it's helpful in the way that we design our programs is you can go through itself guided, but going through it with a [00:30:00] coach who can be like your cheerleader, but really they're troubleshooting everything with you and helping you be really specific and clear about what you're gonna do and try and revise, but yeah, you are already doing the
Jane Macky: work. Even if you don't want to doing different
Jane Macky: type
Jane Macky: of work.
Jane Macky: you're
Jane Macky: stewing, you're angry, you're fighting, you're if you're disconnected, if you're cut off, you're like thinking about it all the time. Like what we know from the research is that cutoffs also, they like still drive
Jane Macky: that like Oh, absolutely.
Jane Macky: That A lot of
Jane Macky: emotion.
Jane Macky: Yeah. Yeah. And so like actually being able to come to a place where you can accept where things are at. Though I would say we are trying to change them as well, but like kind of accept where
Jane Macky: they're at and work on changing them. Yeah. Is actually gonna be much more useful.
Jane Macky: So that's what I tell clients. I'm like, you're already doing the work. This is
Jane Macky: effective. Craft has been proven in so many research studies prior to our work. It's proven. And our online program is clinically validated. It has outcome data behind it like. It is so [00:31:00] effective.
Dominique: Yeah. Um, it's true. I also think it's like important to find the programs that like align with whatever your values and beliefs are. I think like when you were talking about cutting someone off and you're ruminating or stewing and your feelings like, I remember when my mom, my parents really, and I had tried like distancing my brother and we did that for a couple of months and we just felt very guilty about it. And very obsessed with making sure like he was okay and constantly checking on him and making sure that if he's on the street like, is he alive? I haven't heard
Dominique: from him in three, four or five days. So cutting him off wasn't really helping anyone. And I think when we started applying more of a craft-based approach.
Dominique: I think we felt better about it even if we couldn't control the situation or fix anything immediately we felt better that we were doing something that aligned with what we believed in and we felt like we were doing something. And I think that's what a lot of families are looking for, is like anything that they feel is tangible that they can do and that they [00:32:00] don't feel guilty in
Jane Macky: do it. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say also, like you try craft, I mean try it with a good program with certified
Jane Macky: providers Yeah. And clinically validated, et cetera. But if you try it and you're like, this doesn't work. Fine. Like craft is really, truly about effectiveness.
Jane Macky: So it really is about if this works keep doing it or like finding your kind of unique pattern through it. But, um. doing the same thing over that is not working is definitely, not
Jane Macky: helpful
Jane Macky: anyone.
Jane Macky: Not helpful. And then I will also say that there's definitely cases where it's just you are so depleted, you're so burned out it feels like work and you're not up to it.
Jane Macky: And that's where it's really about looking after yourself. What we find is that people often feel better. Learning skills that help them feel like they can navigate
Jane Macky: this, empower
Dominique: them to
Jane Macky: And that's a big part of it. So it's not just about, I think a lot of programs are more like, go look after [00:33:00] yourself and then just work on yourself and they'll figure themselves out, hopefully, eventually. Yeah, I think there's a lot of power in feeling like, when to step in, when to allow things to play out when you're not needed, when
Jane Macky: like
Jane Macky: your role is to allow the consequences to occur. Absolutely. And there's a lot of relief in that, and I think that's also where that idea of oh, I just have to do everything otherwise, we're headed to a really dark place.
Jane Macky: It's like that discernment of here's where I should step in and apply some
Dominique: Yeah.
Dominique: here's
Dominique: step out.
Dominique: Yeah. And also like picking and choosing your battles, I think sometimes is very important.
Dominique: Like I think 12 Step and Craft, they apply different approaches, but I think a lot of it is rooted in like, where can you lean in and like where can you like, take a step back. And do you find that there are areas where, or instances where a 12 step and craft can coexist? Or would you feel that there are two separate approaches that should be tried independently of each other?[00:34:00]
Jane Macky: I think everyone that is facing addiction in a loved one should learn craft.
Jane Macky: I think it's that effective and it's that important because it allows for a relationship to be maintained. It provides you skills. You can still detach with love or like you can still do some of these things from the Al-Anon world. I truly believe that everyone deserves to have these skills and that's why we the Village exists.
Jane Macky: Yeah. The reality is 46% of Americans have a loved one struggling with addiction. It's almost one and two. So you think about like, walking down the streets out here and you're like everybody. And then the other crazy stat is that like around 10% get treatment.
Jane Macky: So that means like 90% of people with a substance use disorder are just flailing their families. And people that love them are
Jane Macky: like also flailing. Like, yeah. And
Jane Macky: So I think that's what I got from my experience
Dominique: Absolutely.
Jane Macky: Aranon early on was like, oh, I'm not alone.
Dominique: I 100% agree with that. Like I found that for the first [00:35:00] time in a long time, there was like a safe space that I could walk into and I could say pretty much whatever I wanted about what I was going through.
Dominique: And someone had been through it too. And I think there's a sense of I'm not crazy. Like, I'm not making this up or this isn't this is an actual problem. And I think hearing other people, what has worked for them, what hasn't worked for them, I think allows you to help make your own informed decisions and opinions based on wherever you and your family are and.
Dominique: I think the beauty in it is that it is anonymous and you don't have to worry about anything being tied to you at the end of the day and you can walk out and just know that you got something off your chest
Dominique: if
Dominique: nothing else.
Dominique: And like you said earlier, I think the beauty in it too is that it is so accessible.
Dominique: It is free and people try different things at different points in time in their life and it's okay if like it works or it doesn't. And I think the important thing, especially with craft, or even going to therapy or other approaches [00:36:00] that might be coming out is shopping around with those programs and finding what works for you.
Dominique: And it's okay if something serves you for a certain amount of time and then doesn't.
Jane Macky: For the family that's exhausted, I'd always say try craft try craft, see if what you need is a different sort of lens on how to look at this and things to try.
Jane Macky: Because in craft we're also really focused on quick wins. And I think that's why, We're often working with people to be like, okay, what could we do this week to actually like, see some change? And it's not gonna be like stopping using their substance forever or like necessarily deciding to go to treatment overnight.
Jane Macky: But it's gonna be something like having a positive communication or like having a positive sober interaction. And some of those things are like really needed and like things that people haven't seen in a long time. I would say try it.
Jane Macky: And us as coaches help go with [00:37:00] where you are ready to go. Some people have a hard time focusing on themselves when their loved one is struggling. And I, I think that makes sense. I did also, but the way we frame it is you are a positive sober role model for your loved one.
Jane Macky: Yeah. And if you are struggling, you're just continuing to paint this picture of like, the sober life is not worth living. And shifting that perspective and like really focusing on investing in yourself and getting back into things that are important to you, whether it's for your, if you can't do it for yourself, like do it for them. For them. you know, like whatever it is that whatever works for you. Yeah. Whatever it is that you're not doing anymore. Like, We take a snapshot of where have you disengaged in things that are important in your life and where can we like, reengage with one of them.
Jane Macky: Absolutely. So like I think it's hard going to therapists that are not experts in craft or in understanding addiction through the lens of a family member because they're just not equipped
Dominique: it's a different approach. It's
Dominique: different,
Dominique: level of expertise that's
Dominique: required. Yeah.
Dominique: It might [00:38:00] feel counterintuitive to like, take care of yourself first, especially if it's, your child that's struggling or someone else that relies on you.
Dominique: And there's like that saying you have to put on your own oxygen mask first before helping anybody else. And I think that definitely applies in the world of addiction and recovery too, is if you want to help this person and whatever that looks like, you have to take care of yourself
Jane Macky: Yes. And addiction. I think one thing I didn't know going into it and I learned like rude awakening it can take so long, the journey from like treatment resistance to like.
Jane Macky: Willingness to like, get some form of treatment, broadly speaking to getting into recovery, to like the first few years in early recovery to like then being fully, like it takes so long.
Dominique: It's a journey, right?
Jane Macky: I had no idea. Yeah. And so you think I'm really strong, like I can just push through it.
Jane Macky: But [00:39:00] yeah, I think that's really hard. It was hard for me to understand. I didn't understand that. I remember when my husband came out of rehab and I was like, we should be like walking on clouds,
Jane Macky: you know, like,
Jane Macky: yeah. And it's no, they're like actually feel terrible. And so there's this like long journey that you have to be, like, ready to go through.
Dominique: Yeah. And also understanding that like you might feel a sense of relief because they're not actively using if they are in recovery, especially very early recovery. There is always the risk of, picking up again. Relapse is obviously very common and I think the tools that you learn in craft are evergreen tools that can help you throughout that process, during active addiction, during recovery, during a relapse and any other stage in between that.
Dominique: Or I think even life events. I find like the tools that I've found in craft even help me with like work or like talking to young adults and I think there's a lot of these foundational resources and approaches that you learn in craft that can be applied to other areas of your life
Jane Macky: too. [00:40:00] Yeah. It's behavior change principles, so it's, yeah, it's principle based and then it's applied to what's in front of you. But yeah, I think those early days and returns to use along the way, like incredibly important. Absolutely. And you can handle them so differently, right? Are you gonna be angry or are you going to be empathetic and like, be like, how do we get back on track?
Jane Macky: Like how do we, what is missing? Like What got us here? Such a different approach for your loved one. And you might be angry, but do you need to be angry at
Jane Macky: them or like, something
Dominique: that you're upset at?
Jane Macky: and, And can you have I understand this is gonna be stressful for me and prepare so that you can also look after yourself.
Jane Macky: What am I gonna
Dominique: Putting a plan in place, right?
Dominique: Like, I think people talk about like relapse recovery plans and what that looks like. But I think also having a plan for yourself and like how you might respond or handle
Jane Macky: Yeah. a
Dominique: situation is super important for your own mental wellbeing.
Jane Macky: And even talking about it like, [00:41:00] Hey, if this were to happen, what do you want me to do?
Jane Macky: What do you think we should do? And I think that's like a dream state is like, how do you get to a place where there's so much transparency and understanding that you can talk about those things where it's not so scary and it's not blaming, it's like we're committed to this path and we know
Jane Macky: that it's hard,
Jane Macky: but like we're gonna get there.
Jane Macky: Absolutely. And that's the best thing is that people do recover. it's
Dominique: at a different stage and it looks different for everyone. I think the important thing with craft too is that it's teaching you how to be a partner in this person's recovery process. Whether they're not there yet or they are like something that I've shared in the podcast is that, my brother is in early recovery right now, and I shared with you that he actually came home this weekend and it was really nice but I found myself like wanting to jump into like mom role and like fix things or tell him what to do.
Dominique: And I find myself catching myself in those moments. And there was something that he shared with me that was very personal and I felt that I had advice and I was like, you know [00:42:00] what? I didn't share my opinion with him, but I said, why don't you talk to your counselor about. This topic with em and he's like, you know what, like that's actually really like smart and like obvious idea and I should do that.
Dominique: And we talked about it and I felt like using craft gave me the resources to give a suggestion
Dominique: without
Dominique: telling him what to do
Jane Macky: and to not feel so frantic that and not feel the frantic, like save the day. And I
Jane Macky: I didn't
Dominique: feel that it was my
Dominique: responsibility. So I think that's an example of like how it also shows up in like the real world that families should keep in mind is that it's not just about getting them to treatment, but it's also about the little moments like that.
Jane Macky: Yeah. I find one thing, when I first started this work, I really understood like that sense of urgency that we come in with and it felt like we had to get really good and creative at slowing people down. Because you get to this place where you're like, everything is a crisis
Dominique: the time.
Jane Macky: And the reality is it's not always a crisis. And yes, again, [00:43:00] like safety first always. Really trying to distinguish is this a crisis and Can we slow down? Can we understand it's a process. And like that example I love 'cause you're like, I'm giving you space. I'm not like Yeah. I'm not feeling if I don't solve this or if we don't get this right, like you're gonna use and Yeah.
Jane Macky: Just like opening up for like more conversation about it
Dominique: the
Dominique: future. Yeah.
Dominique: And I think when you can stay calm and show them that you're empowering them to make their own decisions, I think that person might feel more comfortable and that, and feel safe enough to come to you
Jane Macky: Yes.
Dominique: is something else that's on their mind.
Jane Macky: Yeah. A huge principle that we work with is like self-efficacy. So when we are reinforcing positive behaviors, we're like showing that all the ways in which they're doing a great job and we don't try things that we don't believe we can do. So that's a really important part that kind of starts to get lost, if we're just focusing on the negative behavior. Yeah. That's all they're seeing as well. They're [00:44:00] like, I am just this person that like is failing all the time, but if we can focus on Yeah. Their strengths, the things that they're doing well then they also start to see through like our reflection that I can be this person that has skills, can handle things, can bring something up with my counselor
Dominique: And know that they have the access to it. Like he already has the
Jane Macky: Yeah. And that
Dominique: and the resources, but now you can apply it in a way that works for
Dominique: you
Dominique: So, um,
Jane Macky: slow, but so
Dominique: much Yeah.
Dominique: Work.
Dominique: Absolutely. Like slow and steady. Yeah. And like I always say, like at. I think I say this on every episode is that like recovery is not a destination, it is a journey and there are gonna be like highs and lows and for everyone that's involved. So definitely very important.
Dominique: I wanna begin closing out with asking you like, if there's one thing that every family member knew, if their loved one is struggling with addiction, what would you wanna tell them? If there's one piece of advice,
Jane Macky: Hmm. I would say try out program. We're happy to give a code to listeners.
Jane Macky: Cool. Okay. So FLOR[00:45:00] for a 20% discount on any of our family programs. But yeah, I think some of the themes that we're just talking about, like patience, trying to create a little space to feel like.
Jane Macky: We can slow down and shift things. Positivity and so many uses of the word. We often feel really stuck and like we're banging our head against the wall trying the same things. If we don't have a sense of positivity, it's really hard to get creative. So that's where working with a coach or like, trusting in a process that has like really good clinical data behind it can give you a bit of optimism.
Jane Macky: But also positive reinforcement. We talked about positive reinforcement. We think about it like you've got two plants. If the two plants are like different behaviors, one's substance use and someone's, positive, healthy behavior is we're watering and like putting sun
Jane Macky: on the positive healthy behaviors.
Jane Macky: And we're like. Putting a shade cover and like reducing the water exposure to the other [00:46:00] one. And so it's really about where in the past, again, we're focused on the negative behaviors, we're really shifting a positive focus onto the healthy behaviors and trying to really foster those. And yeah I think just also the message that we're not responsible for it, but we have an influence, like in relationship, we have influence over people all the time.
Dominique: I'm still thinking about it, like the plant analogy. It's like if your plant's dying or the leaves are whittling, you don't throw out the whole plant. You're gonna water it, you're gonna nurture it, you're gonna change the light setting and whatnot.
Dominique: You're gonna try different things. You're gonna add fertilizer to it or whatever. And I think the same thing goes with like how we treat ourselves and how we treat the people that are important to us. Especially when they're in active addiction or in early recovery.
Jane Macky: Yeah.
Dominique: With that being said, Jane, I wanna thank you for coming onto the show, sharing your expertise, sharing this coupon code. I will definitely [00:47:00] share it with our listeners. And thank you for all the work that you guys do at weo Village. We really appreciate it.
Dominique: Thanks for listening to this episode of For Love of Recovery. If you enjoyed this episode or know somebody who might, please leave a comment and share it. You can also join our Facebook group, siblings for Love of Recovery. If you're looking to have deeper conversations around your siblings drug or alcohol addiction. And remember whether there's hope, there's healing.