You can’t force addiction recovery—but you can create the conditions for it (with Pam Lanhart)
About the episode
When someone you love is struggling with addiction, it's easy to believe your only options are to fix it or walk away—but there's a third path, and it starts with understanding that you can't force recovery, though you're not powerless either.
After losing her son Jake, she's dedicated her life to helping families create the conditions for lasting recovery through compassionate, evidence-based approaches like CRAFT and Invitation to Change. Whether you're a parent, sibling, partner, or friend, this conversation offers practical guidance on understanding addiction, communicating more effectively, and supporting a loved one without losing yourself in the process.
Guest: Pam Lanhart, mother, founder and executive director of Thrive Family Recovery Resources
Pam Lanhart is the founder and executive director of Thrive! Family Recovery Resources, which she started in 2016 after struggling to find trustworthy treatment centers and evidence-based support while loving a family member through substance use disorder. Drawing on that firsthand experience, she built Thrive! around the belief that families are critical to recovery, offering support and proven strategies to help loved ones move toward wellness. Based in Minnesota, Pam and her team serve families nationwide, and she regularly collaborates with providers and community partners to develop education and programming rooted in evidence-based recovery practices.
This episode will help you
Understand why "tough love" often creates more chaos than change
Discover what CRAFT and Invitation to Change are—and how families can use them
See the role shame plays in relapse, especially during family visits
Learn how to set firm boundaries without damaging the relationship
Find practical ways to respond during moments of crisis without becoming the fixer or crisis manager
Episode links
About the Invitation to Change (ITC) method
About CRAFT
Resources
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Pam Lanhart: "Are you going to be right for the sake of justice, or are you going to love for the sake of relationship? Because love never fails, and you don't have to always die on the hill of being right as long as you can love. Especially in that parent-child relationship, there's a dynamic of " this must be my fault, so I have to fix it."
Dominique: Welcome to FLOR for Love of Recovery, where I'm your host, Dominique Dajer. Sibling relationships can be so unique, but they can become more complex when there's drug or alcohol use involved. If you find yourself questioning how to help, you're not alone.
Dominique: Join me on this journey in restoring hope and healing.
Dominique: When a loved one is struggling with substance use, families often pour everything they have into trying to fix it, and yet they still feel like they're failing. Today, we're talking about what it actually [00:01:00] looks like to create the conditions for recovery with Pam Lanhart. Pam is the founder and the executive director of Thrive Family Recovery Resources, a nonprofit that provides resources, peer support, and education to families who have a loved one struggling with addiction.
Dominique: Pam is the daughter, sister, and mother of someone who has struggled with addiction and believes that a healthy family gives their loved ones the best opportunity to spark recovery. Pam is also a certified family recovery coach and peer recovery specialist who uses both the Invitation to Change and CRAFT approaches.
Dominique: So Pam, thank you so much for being on the show today. I'm super excited to have this conversation because I've been a member of the Thrive Facebook group for about two years now, and learning about the alternative ways to help my brother through his addiction and now his early recovery has been a core part of my personal journey.
Dominique: So thank you so much.
Pam Lanhart: And thanks for having me.
Pam Lanhart: I love, love, love how you've shared [00:02:00] openly about your relationship with your brother. as a sibling- who had two loved ones that had struggled and now are in recovery. I think siblings are that forgotten part of the family system, and yet so often they're the ones that really actually can have the most influence in that family system because you know, there's just a different dynamic between siblings, I know with my sister and, I mean, we're much older, and she's just celebrated yesterday, or two days ago, four years in sustained recovery the dynamic with her and my mom was so toxic, and there was no real healthy support, between my mom and my sister. And so it really came from my brother and we were the ones that helped intervene. We were, thankfully, I was working in the field at the time, and I was able to help direct her to a treatment center here that, you know, would work for her. So, know we played that really [00:03:00] critical role in the beginning stages of her recovery in a compassionate, way,
Dominique: I love to hear that. I think the sibling story, one, it doesn't get spoken about enough, but I do think there's so much power in the sibling relationship because I think depending on, you know, maybe the age difference or, you know, your upbringing, you guys can share different perspectives without being a parent or without having that adult-child relationship.
Dominique: It's just so different where you're connected in a totally different kind of way. So I love to hear that you're able to be a pillar of support in your sister's recovery story.
Pam Lanhart: Yeah.
Dominique: us through a bit of your story and the role that substance use had in your life and also in the relationships with the people closest to you.
Pam Lanhart: Yeah, you know, I often say I was born to do this work. My family system, you know, there was a lot of generational trauma. There was a lot of generational mental [00:04:00] illness, alcohol use, and when I was born, my parents were already using alcohol very problematically. So I born into this family system that was not very healthy that was strained. My mom and dad fought a lot and their fighting was always really around alcohol. You know, my mom was a stay-at-home mom. She had five kids by the time she was twenty-three. So my mom and dad were married when they were sixteen and eighteen, and then started having babies right away. So, when you think about the stress that would put on a young couple, you know, not to have any time in their marriage, but to Jump into raising kids right away, and then my dad had a job where he was traveling quite a bit.
Pam Lanhart: He was a union organizer. When he came home, there was a lot of fighting. I think it started out like partying, fun, we're having the neighbors over, we're drinking beer, or I'm [00:05:00] gonna go have a drink after work, and then it would always end up drinking to excess, and then, you know, there would just be this volatile blow-up type stuff.
Pam Lanhart: So my parents got divorced when I was 13, but during that entire time, my home was so unsafe. the way that I, managed that was to be busy. I was in every single activity in school, overachiever, over-functioning. But it was really just that, you know how they say fight or flight?
Pam Lanhart: Mine was flight at that time. My trauma response was to protect myself by not being home. And now I look back and I'm like, those things that I learned and those things that I achieved during that time are really valuable, and I'm very proud of them. It just probably came out of really unhealthy motives, right? So mom, we ended up intervening on her when I was 17, which k- is kind of funny because know what that was [00:06:00] back then, but I do remember sitting around and, you know, reading our impact letters, and she said, "I'm gonna go in for the assessment, and I'll be home in two days." And she stayed for 30 and worked a 12-step program for many years.
Pam Lanhart: She ended up marrying a man who was completely not a drinker. So then at that point, it really wasn't part of her, you know, lifestyle And then my dad actually died when I was 27. He was only 51, and he died from the impact of severe alcohol use. He ended up with an aneurysm that burst, and they really think it was from binge drinking. So, you know, we suffered that loss. We suffered all of that trauma.
Pam Lanhart: and in substance use, we talk about, the trifecta
Dominique: Mm-hmm.
Pam Lanhart: of substance use. it really is some biology, but not as much as people think. know There's often this narrative that, substance [00:07:00] use addiction runs in my family. It's genetic. There is no genetic marker for alcohol, for substance use. There's thousands of genes that we have in our biology and our DNA that are risk factors For substance use. So some of those could be, you know, anxiety, ADHD, it could be OCD, it could be other genetic, markers, risk-taking, for example, whether you're even an introvert or extrovert, and then there's this environmental social factor, and it actually is about 80% of what addiction, which is, And I know this now, I carried that trauma into my family. Even though I didn't use substances problematically, I carried that trauma into my family, and what's interesting is I [00:08:00] drank a lot in high school, right out of high school, and I never developed an addiction, which kind of plays into that biology part of it because we did have all of the environmental factors. Now, in my older brother and my younger sister's case, that they were not so lucky, right? We all have these varying degrees of trauma, and I do know from conversations with my brother and sister that they were really the focus of my dad's abuse.
Dominique: The overarching umbrella theme that I'm hearing too is like the survival mode. Whether you're the child who's in survival mode to protect yourself from your parents or just being at home and you choose to go to school or join all these extracurriculars, or you end up picking up substances and go down that path.
Pam Lanhart: We adapt. this is so generational trauma how we walk that out is actually adaptation, so that adaptation may look [00:09:00] like I'm gonna protect myself by being busy, or I'm gonna protect myself by using substances, for example. And so, when I work with families I don't use labels, I don't like to pathologize anything So I really look at a family and go what adaptation skills have they used in order to be able to get through these really difficult traumatic events in their life?" And then that's a strength.
Pam Lanhart: the rest of my story is that then in spite of all the, things that we knew about addiction and all the protective factors that we put into place in our family, which, you know, if you're a parent listening to this, that looks like We raised our kids to be outdoors people.
Pam Lanhart: We had family meals together. They were involved in youth group, church, pro-social activities. We checked all the parenting boxes. We got this little guy, Jake, who definitely had a lot of biological [00:10:00] risk factors. And one of them was that he was a risk-taking kid, and he was busy all the time. Because with ADHD you're impulsive.
Pam Lanhart: You do things that are annoying to other people. You know, kids might not like you, or you might get in trouble in school. And so there were all of those where, you know, he was surrounded by good kids, not just in church, but also going to a charter school. And he was the bad kid. That narrative that he adopted really led to some of the behaviors that then led to substance
Dominique: Yeah.
Pam Lanhart: And he started using very young. He was 12. And then my husband we both reacted to it very differently. Both were not very healthy. For me, I was back in my childhood trauma, and I was completely activated. So my make it stop [00:11:00] behaviors were to try to control, to yell, to manipulate, to try to get in there and solve. I was a problem solver. Like, I'm, you know, I'm gonna speed up and get three or four or five steps ahead of you so that we can mitigate harm. And then for my husband, it was just to shut down. You know, he just didn't want to deal with it. So we often played this sort of good cop, bad cop role. I remember when he was 15 years old, before he went to his first treatment center, him and my husband and saying, because he had stolen some things and we had found out, and I'm like, "You know, we have an addict in our family, and either he gets help or I leave." I didn't want to live in that chaos anymore, and yet I was creating the chaos. And so that's really part of the recovery process is learning that, maybe we can't addiction and can't control another person's behavior.
Pam Lanhart: But holy cow, was I [00:12:00] contributing to that chaos in my
Pam Lanhart: When Jake was 17 think we were sitting in front of a, pastor and advisor, and he looked at us and he said, "Are you going to be right for the sake of justice, or are you going to love for the sake of relationship? Because love never fails, and you don't have to always die on the hill of being right as long as you can love right." You know? so that was the shift. And in the meantime, we had done some dialectical behavioral therapy, in our family. That gave us a framework being able to communicate differently, for self-regulation, for taking a step back, pausing making decisions with intention. And then, you know, there were other things that contributed to our change. One was reading the book The Anatomy of Peace Grieving the Wilderness by Brené Brown. And all of a sudden we just shifted. There was just a shift in our [00:13:00] family. Now, it wasn't because we went to a 12-step meeting. I had been to them. I wasn't willing to label my son. I wasn't willing to just let go or detach in a manner that I felt wasn't aligned with my values. I wasn't able to, kick him out at the time, and I don't even like using that term,
Dominique: Yeah.
Pam Lanhart: know, because That's just so, conflictual and extreme. So we had to learn a different way, and that was really the start of the work that do.
Pam Lanhart: And we started Thrive in 2016 about the time he's 18 years old, and I started to see a change in our family. started to see a change in the relationships with my other kids, my husband. The tools and the skills that we use as you know in the Invitation to Change or CRAFT, which are informed by, you know, motivational interviewing and [00:14:00] cognitive therapy, they work in every single relationship, I'm so proud of the fact that have a great relationship with my kids, and in particular, youngest daughter who was... She was to Jake like you are your brother. You know, super close. And we just, we... You know, in fact, just the night before last, were having a little conflict, and she stepped away, and she came back, and this is gonna be funny because you will know exactly where this comes from. But she said, "Mom, when you respond when I talk about this particular show with the words 'That show is disturbing,' and I like that show, it sort of makes me feel like something's wrong [00:15:00] with me. I would really like..." And she made a request, very direct. "I'd like to ask that when I bring that show up, you don't use that word." And it was so respectful, so responsible. Uh received it well. There was no conflict around that, and I was like, "This is my response. Thank you for sharing that in the way you just shared it, Nikki. really appreciate the way you communicated that. What I hear you saying is, you don't like when I use that word-" And I will be respectful. What I would ask in return is that you would that bringing that up not be in our best interest relationally.
Pam Lanhart: So my ask in that is really that you consider, talking about that or sharing it with other people that might be more interested, right?
Dominique: [00:16:00] Yeah.
Pam Lanhart: that was the conversation.
Dominique: I think that's totally fair. I think a lot of the times parent and child, and really just everyone, they just wanna feel like they have the safe space to express what's on their mind, and also that the other person on the receiving end is going to receive that and not judge them or shame them for it.
Dominique: And I think it's incredibly important for, especially for that to occur in a parent-child relationship because there is this power dynamic, and I think that's where a lot of, like, parent-child relationships can get especially strained when they feel like they're not being heard. So I love that you and your daughter are communicating that way and exercising those healthy communication habits.
Pam Lanhart: Yeah, and I think it's so encouraging when you start to see the fruit of all the work that you have done. You know, so we've been in therapy for over a decade, and a lot of it was skills-based. I don't ever doubt a mother's love for their child, oftentimes in the way we show up in a [00:17:00] relationship, it does not feel loving, And also, there's just no real guidebook for that transition of parenting a child versus now moving out of that role because they're 18 or 19 and, or 20, and now you're just in this. relationship like, "I'm the parent, you're the kid. I'm right, you're wrong. You need to listen to me because you don't know what you're talking
Dominique: So I have a question for you. Especially when Jake was very young and he was starting with substances as a teenager, how did you move from being this parent who's working to keep them accountable and making sure that they're safe to navigating that for an adult child without becoming a recovery coach or a crisis manager or a sponsor or anything like that?
Pam Lanhart: We used motivational interviewing skills. Motivational interviewing has been researched, it's evidence-based, [00:18:00] and it is completely amazing when it comes to, language, right? So i-i-- basically, there are parenting books like How to Talk So Your Kid Will Listen, and Listen So Your Kid Will Talk, right? There's a parenting book called Raising Human Beings by Ross Green. There's the anatomy piece, and all of these take the practices of motivational interviewing and dial them down to really effective language skills. And then, there were practical things like, " I'm not gonna respond to this text right now, because if I do, I will say things that I don't wanna say."
Dominique: Right. So it sounds like communication skills in general just played a very important part in how you supported Jake, learning how to talk to him without [00:19:00] maybe dictating or telling him what he, quote, "Should or shouldn't do," and allowing him to feel supportive and allowing him to make his own decisions in that process.
Pam Lanhart: Yeah, and that is so scary when you have someone using substances, giving them agency or
Dominique: I'm glad
Pam Lanhart: " Well, the decision they're gonna make obviously is to go back out and use." And at some point, however, you know, when you're to connect with them and have that influence, and you can take them through those process of open-ended questions and empowerment. You know, "What would that look like? What do you think would work for you?" how could you see this happening? What are the pros and cons?" So I do that even now with my daughter a lot. Like, she's 25, gonna be 26. She goes...
Pam Lanhart: She's in college, and, you know, sometimes she just wants to vent, but [00:20:00] then other times she wants real feedback. And what I really try to do is through those, questions to just help her figure it out for herself, right? 'Cause she's smart enough, she's self-aware enough to be able to do that.
Dominique: Yeah, it's true. It's, like, different. Like, your relationship with your parent or with your child's gonna be different when you're a teenager versus as you're becoming a young adult. it's nice to hear that you guys are navigating that in her mid-20s, 'cause I think that's really the, like, a growing pain area where there's, like, the constant fight for independence, not wanting to be told what to do, but also wanting the autonomy to, like, figure things out as a young adult.
Dominique: So I think that's just, like, a growing pain in general.
Dominique: One of the things that you've talked about before is this concept of, like, modern family recovery. Could you talk a little bit about, like, what exactly that is and what it means when family members can step out of the traditional role that they've played to play a more active role in this modern family [00:21:00] recovery?
Pam Lanhart: Yeah.
Pam Lanhart: you know, I think that kind of is taking the lead from the therapeutic process when you look at how people are being treated for substance use disorder now versus the way they were maybe 15 years ago. I live in Minnesota. We're the land of 10,000 treatment centers. Um Hazelden was the Granddaddy of them all and developed this Minnesota model, which was heavily rooted in 12-step p- process which is not clinical.
Dominique: Mm-hmm.
Pam Lanhart: Mm-hmm. And so we're seeing a shift uh 12-step process, still amazing when it comes to, helping people in early recovery build community, into more of a therapeutic process, and then also recognizing the role of trauma and how trauma and systemic [00:22:00] things like poverty, racism play into of substances, right? So what is the truth, as you know, Dominic, is that the family recovery world has not evolved in the way that families are being treated or the way that families are being supported, through that recovery process. And so even as, you know, early ago as or eight years, there was one way and one route for, quote-unquote, "family recovery." And, you know, we honor the legacy of the modalities that we have built our work on, the same time, less than 1% of families are engaging in getting help, and many [00:23:00] are reporting that they don't resonate with just one type of for family recovery. so, you know, if we look at the old way versus a new way, you know, the past versus the present why are we not evolving it comes to the way families are guided the way that they're equipped the modalities that we use to help them? and so I think modern family recovery is really like we can hold both things at the same time. We can hold love and kindness and empathy, empowerment, and boundaries and natural consequences. We can learn how to practice self-acceptance, You know, we can learn though the spirit of, for example, the 12 steps is, like there are certain things that I [00:24:00] can't control or change, which is true, can also hold this idea that there are many things that you can do, you can change,
Dominique: Absolutely. There doesn't need to be, like, a one-size-fits-all approach. You can really pick and choose what's working for you or your family to really integrate the right process for you all. obviously, 12-step, even interventions have been a very important part of recovery traditionally, and I think to your point, like, now that more evidence-based treatments like CRAFT, Invitation to Change are increasingly getting the recognition they deserve.
Dominique: How can families get... decide on the right approach for them? Like what is the first step they should take? Is it going to a 12-step program? Is it going to family therapy? Is it getting involved in Invitation to Change method? Like, where exactly should they start when they're just feeling stuck and very unsure of where to go?
Pam Lanhart: Yeah, you know, I think, okay, so a couple things. First of all I think therapy, everybody should be in therapy. [00:25:00] and understanding that when you're in talk therapy and you're talking to somebody about your loved one that uses substances, typically that therapist is still gonna be rooted in sort of the old ideology of tough love,
Dominique: Mm-hmm.
Pam Lanhart: Or at least that's what most people have reported experiencing. Which is why I love, the cognitive behavioral therapy, the dialectical behavioral therapy, or even somatic therapy or internal family systems therapy. Typically, those things are really gonna help, you heal from your own
Pam Lanhart: looking at like, what was my family system like? What were family patterns? Doing some trauma work around EMDR or accelerated resolution therapy. Those things are a great place to start recognizing that like everything that I do is informed by [00:26:00] my past patterns, and maybe they're not necessarily working for me. And so I think that is one piece of it. think the other piece of it is education. Learning about substance use as a response to pain and trauma environmental, factors that are causing someone to feel, dysregulated that's why people use. In the 12-step modality the messaging is very single-minded, which this is a spiritual problem that that needs a spiritual solution. in our work, that's one, one of the eight dimensions of wellness is spiritual work, but it's not all of it,
Dominique: Right.
Pam Lanhart: I can be a spiritual person and not know how to communicate at all.
Dominique: The big challenge, I think, is that a lot of it is also [00:27:00] rooted in cutting family members off if they're struggling with substance use or distancing themselves, right?
Dominique: There's, like, this detachment part. And while building boundaries and sometimes protecting your space is incredibly important, I think it doesn't account for the fact that family members can be incredible sources of support when it comes to the recovery process, rather than expecting that the person is going to figure it all out on their own and that it's only their responsibility.
Pam Lanhart: Of course we'd love for everybody to, learn the CRAFT and ITC process because I think it's more actionable and action-oriented. But I think you do have to find, even within each one of those modalities, there can be messages that don't feel right for you.
Dominique: Mm-hmm.
Pam Lanhart: And I think you have to trust that, right? Anything that's extreme is probably not going to be helpful whether it's [00:28:00] extremely tough or whether it's extremely loving.
Pam Lanhart: Being loving can often lead to over-enmeshment, over-helping being a rescuer and then being tough can lead to conflict, chaos, being that persecutor. And so I think that any messaging that creates extreme behaviors on either side is just not gonna be
Dominique: Right.
Pam Lanhart: we have to think about both. have to think, "Yeah, it's tough. Like, it's tough to be in this situation, but I don't need to be tough in my way of being. I can be kind and compassionate and still set a boundary,
Pam Lanhart: a hard boundary, a boundary [00:29:00] that says, like, 'I love you, but it's not safe right now for you to live in my home because, you know, your behaviors are aggressive, and living in fear.' Or because I can't feel safe because I can't my purse out on the countertop because I'm afraid I'm gonna get my wallet stolen," right? so I think for me, it goes back to safety, like what feels safe. How can I live my best life even when my loved one is
Dominique: Yeah.
Pam Lanhart: And we have to separate our identity and who we are as a mother, daughter, friend from the individual and their behaviors.
Pam Lanhart: I think that especially in that parent-child relationship, there's a dynamic of like, this must be my fault, so [00:30:00] I have to fix it.
Dominique: Yeah, it's so true. I think what's also important that you're talking about is the language you're even using when you're setting that boundary is very different from, "It's unsafe for you to live here because I feel, being put at risk," or, "It's dangerous," or, "Your behavior is aggressive."
Dominique: It's very different from saying, like, "I'm kicking you out. You can't live here anymore."
Pam Lanhart: Mm-hmm.
Dominique: might be the same, the explanation and the communication behind it is very different, and I think that's one of the important things with using CRAFT and Invitation to Change and motivational interviewing.
Dominique: I also recognize that these terms have come up a lot in this conversation, and for those that are listening who might not know the differences between those things, I was hoping you could take a second to just explain the difference between what CRAFT is, what Invitation to Change is, and what motivational interviewing is, in case someone is listening and they're just confused as to, like, what all these terms are.
Pam Lanhart: Yeah, we do use a lot of [00:31:00] acronyms in the world of all of this, right? CRAFT stands for Community Reinforcement and Family Training, CRAFT motivational interviewing, acceptance and commitment theory, co- cognitive behavioral therapy, these are all therapeutic, evidence-based, researched modalities that have been around for 30 or 40 years. CRAFT was created by a man named Robert Myers. It was researched especially in the context of treatment-resistant teens that were unhoused, and how could they get them the help they would accept. And then also in the context and in his book, Get Your Loved One Sober He was out in the Appalachians, and there were a lot of, families out there that were very poor that the men often were working in the mines. They were often injured, and they would use alcohol or substances to mitigate pain, and they had [00:32:00] wives and children that could not leave.
Dominique: Mm.
Pam Lanhart: And so when you can't leave, what can you do? And CRAFT was highly effective in those homes where there was a partner or spouse, and it really is an intervention in some ways.
Pam Lanhart: It's a very... Both Invitation to Change and CRAFT and motivational interviewing all use this process. So instead of telling someone what to do, I'm going to invite change into our relationship through the process of listening well, the process of asking questions through the process of the removal of language that causes harm or language that shuts change down, you know, or exploration, right?
Pam Lanhart: So that could look like, you know, "I'm-" Really tired of drinking. And the family member [00:33:00] responds by saying, "Well, yeah, of course you are. You know, you've lost your job, you've lost your kids. When are you gonna finally change?" Which is confrontational language versus, "Wow, I heard you say, you know, you're really feeling like you're tired of the way you feel from drinking or the consequences of drinking. And I think it would be hard. I can't even imagine that would be like. Tell me more about that. Like, when you say you're tired of that, what does that mean for you?" Right? Or, "How is that playing out in your life?" Like, and then of course, that might sound a little therapeutic, so you could just say, Say more about that."
Dominique: Yeah, I think what's important that you're getting at with this kind of approach is for the person who's using substances and might feel ambivalent about wanting to start the recovery process or uncertain or feeling maybe very defensive about it, it's less about getting them to change today, but really about like planting [00:34:00] that seed and getting them to be open to the idea of change.
Pam Lanhart: Mm-hmm. absolutely. And um you know, just being open to the idea that I don't have to tell them what to do, that I can be in a position which is, which feels even better of, like, empowering them so that they can figure out what to do themselves. Because the, there's two things that happen when we tell someone what they should do. is that it activates their natural rebellion. if I'm telling somebody what to do, they're gonna probably do the opposite, because they wanna try to figure it out for themselves. But the second thing that happens is when I tell someone what to do and it doesn't work out for them, they're gonna come back and blame me, Mm-hmm. And so then we become the scapegoat, the bad guy. You know, "Mom you're the one that suggested this. You told me what to [00:35:00] do. you know, it didn't turn out. It's all your fault," right? So we're putting ourselves in a position where we can be blamed for failure, and the best thing we can do is step out of that role. And when they discover something for themselves, the likelihood that they're gonna own that, you know, shoots up to 75, And so what better odds,
Dominique: Yeah, absolutely.
Ambivalence And Readiness
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Dominique: And also understanding that, like, your person might also feel very scared. And I think in understanding, like, where their mindset is and how they're feeling might help you help them. I think a lot of the times parents or even siblings might perceive that their child is just being defiant or they just don't care or that they're selfish, right?
Dominique: You hear that kind of language a lot, and you hear parents, of course, getting very frustrated. And there's this, like, throwing their hands in the air and just feeling like they're giving up. And I think that ambivalence is a natural part [00:36:00] of substance use and recovery. And I think understanding why they might be feeling that way, I think is very important for everyone that's involved.
Pam Lanhart: , There's a lot of research about ambivalence and we don't move out of ambivalence until the scales are tipped, right? Living life on life's terms, allowing for those natural consequences, letting them, self-discover. Typically, I'm not gonna move from ambivalence until I'm kind of feeling ready to change, which might be some suffering or
Dominique: And I think for, again, for those who are listening or hearing this term ambivalence and for the first time I think it might be safe to describe ambivalence as that feeling of being torn, of you know what, on the surface what you should do or what's gonna create a healthier outcome, but feeling uncomfortable or scared or uncertain if it's something that you want to do or not sure how to do.
Dominique: So just to give some of that [00:37:00] context for folks who are listening and hearing that word for the first time.
Pam Lanhart: Yeah, and we label ambivalence as not ready or you don't want it or... You know, we get frustrated because someone will come to us and say, you know, "I'm really ready for treatment this time around. I really wanna be..." I mean, honestly, I'm working with a mom here in Minnesota, and her daughter has been in and out of jail probably a dozen times. Every single time she says, "I'm gonna end this relationship with my girlfriend. I'm gonna get the help that I need. I'm gonna go to treatment. I'm gonna stay in treatment." And almost every single time, in fact, she has never completed treatment. She has gone in, and within two to three weeks, she is back with her girlfriend and, you know, out of treatment.
Pam Lanhart: And in that circumstance, you really understand addiction and ambivalence [00:38:00] even this toxic, this relationship with this
Dominique: Right.
Pam Lanhart: drug. Like, that is a drug for her. I mean, as a parent, you would get so discouraged and so frustrated and so angry. And, you know, this mom calls me yesterday and says, "Well, my daughter left again." And we can have a conversation around that looks like compassion and empathy hard, hard, hard, and this girl may not make it out of this, right? her mom has set boundaries. She hasn't stepped in to rescue her. But when she's in jail, she takes her phone calls. When she's in treatment, she takes her ph- phone calls. But it's that again, it's that is she just not ready? Does she not want it? Oh, she wants
Dominique: Yeah.
Pam Lanhart: Jail's miserable,
Pam Lanhart: you
Dominique: it's so true. Like,[00:39:00]
Pam Lanhart: the streets are miserable.
Dominique: has always told me when he was in active addiction my brother has been through, like, the revolving door of different rehabs and leaving after twenty-four hours or leaving after thirty days. You know, he's left programs at different stages. But one thing that he said that made it very clear to me, he's like, "Every time I ever went to rehab, when I was on my way and I made that decision to go, I did want it in those moments," right?
Dominique: But sometimes those moments and those feelings can come and go as urges change, as feelings of being uncomfortable change, especially what I've... You know, it's always in hindsight, like, if you're in rehab and you're there for two or three weeks, you're just really starting to get into that hard work and those feelings of being uncomfortable and wanting to change or not wanting to change start to come up.
Dominique: And I think that's where a lot of people start to think about, like, leaving programs because things start to get uncomfortable and what feels good is familiar, even [00:40:00] if the familiar is Unsafe, dangerous, or has some kind of negative consequence. So I think it's less so about like wanting to upset someone or their family or whomever, but it's really about like, this thing is weird, it's uncomfortable, and I don't like it, so I wanna go back to the thing that made me feel better, even if that thing is dangerous.
Pam Lanhart: Yeah, just because it's familiar doesn't mean it's good or best.
Pam Lanhart: and the biology supports that. The science supports that. We develop neural pathways around both positive and negative behaviors. So really when you think about it, like this felt good at one point. It felt good again. I did it.
Pam Lanhart: That feeling was reinforced even if it's a negative thing, right? That, like, substances or even for family members, that could be, you know, I blew my top and I lost my-" stuff and boy, that released a lot of dopamine, and it really felt good. So that creates-- starts to create this neural pathway, and then what happens is that [00:41:00] scientifically, there's these neurons called dendrites that are built up around those neural pathways that sort of keep you stuck in them.
Pam Lanhart: They're almost like little, you know, shrubs, right? They're like a fence around a train track or around a road. And so the more dendrites that are built around a neural pathway, the more likely you're gonna go down that neural pathway, even if it is no longer helpful for you. And so the only antidote for that is to create new neural pathways around positive behaviors, around the alternative behaviors.
Pam Lanhart: So that's why in our approaches, we talk about reinforcing behaviors that are actually good and positive you know, we wanna
Dominique: yeah.
Pam Lanhart: longer rewarding negative behaviors, but we're looking for the good, and we're rewarding the positive behaviors that actually really [00:42:00] help create new neural pathways, which is really what in the recovery community people talk about recovery is not just about stopping a drug. It's about building new positive patterns and adding new things in your life that will rewire your brain and create neural pathways around the good things, the positive things, and that's in every way. That's building a new community. That, those are building new practices. They might be routines, spiritual practices.
Pam Lanhart: It could be things like
Dominique: Right
Pam Lanhart: movement and walking, and it could be in relationship, right? So I have relationships now that feel good, that build me up that I wanna lean into.
Dominique: Yeah, like a sense of confidence overall too. And the important thing is I think building new memories, healthy memories that create that confidence. My brother is in early recovery. He is coming home [00:43:00] for home visits from his long-term program. And an important part of the ideology that they've instilled is that it's important for you to be in different environments, building new memories, especially if there were a lot of old or negative memories there.
Dominique: Because rather than avoiding those triggers, but being in those environments again and knowing how to adapt, knowing that you have a belt of healthy coping mechanisms can also be a very powerful part of the recovery process. So I love that you're talking about the way the brain works in establishing those recovery experiences.
Pam Lanhart: Yeah, and sometimes we can't avoid all the triggers. So then part of that is learning how to work through those triggers and how we gain this feeling of success when we start to see progress in these areas that we have previously not been able to have success [00:44:00] in, right? So when you're in a treatment center or when you're in a recovery program, it's not just, "I'm gonna avoid all the triggers."
Pam Lanhart: In fact, that's... You know, I see parents that are like, "I just wanna... I want them to be in a two-year program. You know, I'd rather have them on a desert island, you know, than integrated in the community." Well, that's not really helpful, because all you're doing
Dominique: Isolating
Pam Lanhart: protecting
Dominique: avoiding,
Pam Lanhart: in
Dominique: yeah
Pam Lanhart: right? And so then i- in, like, the one program that your brother's in right now, and a lot of the integrated community programs are so much more effective because you're still exposed, right?
Pam Lanhart: You're exposed to your, you know, triggers or the things that might be hard for you, but now you're learning how to manage those. That's what dialectical behavioral therapy does, is it allows me learn how to manage the distress in my [00:45:00] life, you know, in a way that works for me.
Dominique: Yeah. Yeah, I love that you're talking about that.
Do No Harm On Hard Days
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Dominique: It's about how they're showing up for themselves, and we talked a lot about how we show up as family members for our loved ones. And I think that phrase is so important. I wanna begin closing out with asking you to describe what does how we show up and practicing this idea of do no harm actually look like on a really hard day when you come home, you're exhausted, you're frustrated, you're probably scared.
Dominique: And, like, what does that look like in practice?
Pam Lanhart: Yeah. I think it looks like pause. And it could look like movement. um So it really is somatic, right? So when I'm having a bad day, when I'm distressed, my central nervous system is really activated. When our central nervous system is activated, we can't uh use our prefrontal cortex the way [00:46:00] that we need to. So how do I get back online, right? Like, which if you think about it from a technology standpoint, if my computer goes offline, I need to replug it in, right? I need to unplug it and plug it in to get it back online, and that's what we're doing. We're unplugging, right, from the distress From the circumstances that are causing us dysregulation, and then what do I need, and this is person-centered, to sort of re-plug in or to refresh my mind and my body and my spirit. And so for me, that could look like music. It could look like prayer. It could look like movement and walking. It looks like journaling. It might be all of those, a walk and listening to something productive or meaningful or calming while I'm moving. So I would advise anybody to never respond to anything, [00:47:00] nothing, when you are in that kind of state of activation because you will not well. You know, I really remind parents or family members, anybody, you don't have to answer the text.
Dominique: Mm-hmm.
Pam Lanhart: You don't have to pick up the phone. You know, honestly, I have to tell you, My stepdad He's 92. He He lives in assisted living. He's been having some issues with anxiety, if I'm not in the right state of mind and I see his name come across my caller ID, I don't answer the phone.
Dominique: Mm-mm.
Pam Lanhart: And I let him leave a message, and then when I'm ready and when I'm in a place where I can be kind,
Dominique: Yeah.
Pam Lanhart: Then I call him back. A lot of times, by the time you call him back, the issue's been resolved anyway.
Dominique: That's so true. I think a lot of the times, especially when you have a loved one who's struggling with addiction, there's always a sense of emergency or crisis [00:48:00] that needs to be averted, and that it's our job to fix it or help or figure it out, whatever it might be. And I think sometimes understanding that not everything is a crisis, even if it feels like it, and you don't need to fix everything, even if you're used to doing that.
Dominique: Answering the phone, especially, it always feels like you're gonna get bad news on the other end of the line, or there's always some kind of threat. And whether you answer the phone or not, that threat might still be there.
Dominique: But sometimes what's more important is taking that break and clearing your head, taking the space that you need, that way you can show up in a way that is healthy, is productive and is helpful for you, not just mitigating whatever crisis or problem might be at your door.
Pam Lanhart: thing. It works for them. If they can create crisis, and they can get you out of your wise mind, they're gonna get what they want, right? it's [00:49:00] not in, the individual using substances doesn't intentionally go, "Okay, I'm gonna create a crisis." The addiction does.
Pam Lanhart: The addiction knows how to manipulate, how to get what they want. So if I can create this crisis, and it's tyranny of the urgent, and I make it seem like I'm gonna die if I don't get this thing, then maybe I'll get that thing, right? And if we play into that, that works for them. We're reinforcing the negative behavior. we really have to, you know, make decisions with intention. It's
Dominique: that.
Pam Lanhart: that I take a step back and then that gives me this opportunity of like, and I, and this is another whole, we could do an hour just on boundaries. But it gives me that opportunity to go, "Okay, what is most important to me in this moment right now?
Pam Lanhart: Is it going to my daughter's soccer game or my husband's business [00:50:00] meeting, or is it, you know, responding to this crisis with my kiddo who is using substances and is always in a
Dominique: Yeah.
Pam Lanhart: And that's not gonna go away, but I wanna be a wife and a mother for my whole family, not just for one family member. So then I'm gonna intentionally choose to do that other
Dominique: Absolutely.
Pam Lanhart: for my husband. I'm gonna show up for my other kids, you know, because that that I, those relationships are critical to me.
Dominique: Absolutely.
Dominique: And I think that's a great way to, like, talk about what family recovery looks like. What does a strong support system look like for the entire family, and what would your message to the family member who feels completely alone in this right now?
Pam Lanhart: Yeah. I mean, ideally it would be wonderful if the whole family system worked together, right? So, I'm a trained comprehensive care consultant, [00:51:00] kind of case manager, and when we work with a family, we work with the whole entire family. so we're all on the same page. And, that would be ideal, right? Now, if you are alone, I'm gonna tell you two things. First of all it, it starts with you, and you can model recovery, and when you model that it, more is caught than taught. it'll ripple into the other members of your family. But then community is critical. And so even if the rest of your family isn't on board with how you're walking through this you ha- cannot set a boundary without support. You cannot walk through this without people in your life that help you feel like you're not alone in this. And I would suggest that you do that with people that think the same way you do, [00:52:00] right?
Dominique: Yeah, absolutely. It's important to be on the same page with everyone in the family. I will put the link in the show notes to Thrive and where families can get those resources. If they wanna get started and learn more about CRAFT and Invitation to Change, they can do that.
Dominique: And with that, Pam, I really wanna thank you for coming onto the show today, being vulnerable and, like, sharing your story, your experience growing up with your family, and also the journey of navigating Jake's substance use. So I really appreciate that. And thank you for all the work that you do at Thrive and supporting the entire recovery community.
Dominique: Thanks for listening to this episode of For Love of Recovery. If you enjoyed this episode or know somebody who might, please leave a comment and share it. You can also join our Facebook group, siblings for Love of Recovery. If you're looking to have deeper conversations around your siblings drug or alcohol addiction. And remember whether there's hope, there's healing.