"Who do I save?" Protecting all your kids when one struggles with addiction (with Kathleen Cochran)
About the episode
When your child struggles with addiction, that fear and laser focus on saving them can consume everything — including the ability to support their siblings who are quietly falling apart, too.
In this episode, we expose one of the least-discussed realities of family addiction: how to show up for all of your children when one is in crisis. From parentification and sibling anger to guilt and rebuilding, this conversation is for parents who are trying to save one child without losing another.
Guest: Kathleen Cochran, mother and founder of Moms for All Paths to Recovery
This episode will help you
Identify and create boundaries that work for you and your family
See first-hand how harm reduction plays a vital role in supporting your loved one
Navigate the impossible triage of parenting under pressure, protecting one child without losing another
Find a path toward rebuilding your relationship with all of your kids, even after years of crisis mode
Episode links
About: Moms For All Paths to Recovery (MAP) is a community for mothers navigating a child's struggle with alcohol or drug use — along with advocates, harm reductionists, and addiction experts. Unlike a traditional support group, MAP is an information hub grounded in science and data, giving members the knowledge they need to act in their family's best interest. Members share trusted research, news, and resources, with open dialogue encouraged as a path to becoming stronger and wiser.
Resources
💬 JOIN OUR SIBLING-FOCUSED COMMUNITY
Join our Facebook group, Siblings For Love of Recovery to:
Connect with other siblings
Share your own story in a safe space
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🤳 CONNECT WITH FOR LOVE OF RECOVERY
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Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61561542956095
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Kathleen: [00:00:00] Who do you save? Sometimes that answer changes by the hour. There were moments where Molly was in active crisis and needed immediate help, and there were other moments my younger son was quietly carrying fear, resentment, confusion, and loneliness for years.
And I made the mistake of assuming that because he wasn't screaming for help, that he must be okay. And you're not okay at all. You're just adapting.
Dominique: Welcome to FLOR for Love of Recovery, where I'm your host, Dominique Dajer. Sibling relationships can be so unique, but they can become more complex when there's drug or alcohol use involved. If you find yourself questioning how to help, you're not alone. Dominique: Join me on this journey in restoring hope and healing.
Dominique: It's incredibly difficult [00:01:00] growing up with a sibling or a parent struggling with addiction, and it can be even more challenging when it feels like one of your parents is choosing between protecting one family member or another. There's a constant question around who do you choose to protect and how do you do it?
Dominique: Whether you're a parent or a sibling, this episode is for you. To help us answer these questions, we have Kathleen Cochran with us. Kathleen is a mother, advocate, and founder of Moms for All Paths to Recovery, an online hub and parent community where Kathleen and other moms share addiction and treatment information backed by science and data and compassionate support. Dominique: Kathleen, thank you so much for being on the show today.
Kathleen: Well, thank you for having me and for everything you're doing in a space that isn't talked about enough. the information and the support that you're putting out for siblings is just much more valuable than you even know.
Dominique: Really appreciate that. It's always nice when it feels [00:02:00] like your story and your experience is actually reaching into like the homes and lives of other people. I'd love if you could start off by sharing a little bit about your personal story and how you got into the work you're doing today with MAPP, and a little bit about your personal experience as a parent.
Kathleen: I am a mother of three children, and my middle daughter has used drugs for probably 20 years. And there have been periods in that 20 years where it has been chaotic and often extremely problematic and very dangerous early on in her journey I did what most parents do. I went to the internet and tried to figure out how I could save my child.
Kathleen: She started early. She's a victim of, being prescribed OxyContin early on, and she just took off to the races bearing [00:03:00] a pretty severe childhood trauma that we didn't really know about at the time. So opioids are pain relief, and for the first time, she felt relief from her pain, and the situation got out of control pretty fast.
Kathleen: And so off to the internet I go. she was only 15 years old, so that is even, more problematic and still problematic today, with early adults, uh, teenagers. And so, I don't know, somehow I got convinced that I should send her to a therapeutic boarding school, which I did, and they further traumatized her. Kathleen: She's part of the troubled teen industry. Her boarding school was closed down. There was death there. There was trauma. And so, that really launched her. I did more damage than good. That really launched her into a 10-year journey with [00:04:00] drugs. And her particular drug of choice was heroin at the time, and, it was a beast. Kathleen: So I recycled her in and out of rehabs because, again, the only support that I really knew was through online support groups and googling things and getting all kinds of, uh, of advice about what I should and shouldn't do to save my child. And so I'm always embarrassed to say this, but she went to 20 rehabs. Kathleen: but I'm not alone because, we had a lot of mothers that did that. And finally, like I just-- I don't know, I had an awakening. I was like, "Wait a minute," you know All the advice I'm getting is, you know, really people just saying mean things to me. you know, I was called a, enabler. I was told that I needed, and I was made to go to a couple of Co-Dependency No More classes through the parenting groups at the rehabs offered. Kathleen: [00:05:00] In all of those 20 rehabs, she was labeled as, you know, a chronic user. And, she would complete rehab. She's really smart. She's like A student, be the best, complete rehab, and then immediately return to use upon coming home. So she was what they called a chronic relapser. So now not only is she an addict, she's a chronic relapser. Kathleen: and nobody was addressing, any of her core issues or nobody was using science to help her. So not one person recommended medications for opioid use disorder during this time, and I found all that on my own. And all of a sudden my world exploded and opened up, and I realized that All of this was being driven by stigma. Kathleen: None of it was being driven by evidence-based information, and I couldn't find one group out there [00:06:00] that could, you know, give me truths. I realized quickly, you know, this is a medical health condition, that there is no one path. We're all different people. We're gonna respond to different things differently, and I founded Moms for All Paths to do just that. Kathleen: So we're not a support group, but we are a group that publishes, evidence-based material, science, literature different ways people have recovered, just to throw it all out there, you know, so people can try on different shoes, hoping that one day that their child can stop putting themselves in such dangerous situations. Kathleen: You know, addiction is a life-threatening disorder, and so I feel very good about the work that we're doing, and I know that we're helping to save lives. Dominique: Absolutely. I think you touched on a breadth of topics that I'm sure a lot of parents and siblings that are listening can relate to. I think one thing that's [00:07:00] super important to address is the shame and guilt that you started to talk about, and then you're also talking about these labels like addict and chronic relapser, which are not only incredibly stigmatizing, but can be incredibly harmful towards the person who's using substances, but also the family when they're feeling like they're doing something wrong when they're doing all that they can to actually help someone. Dominique: So I think that's such a universal experience and a scary place to be in and feel like you're actually being heard for the first time. Then you're also talking about this transition of going from a one-minded or single-minded approach to understanding the breadth of resources when you're learning about the science of addiction and how there are so many different ways that a loved one's addiction can actually be treated using science and medication and a variety of medical support rather than just these thirty-day rehabs that I'm sure a lot of our loved ones get cycled [00:08:00] in and out of like revolving doors. Dominique: How did you navigate, you know, having maybe one child or one child who's using substances, maybe one who's not, or two that are, and like what did that look like for you and your family? Kathleen: Yeah. Molly is in the middle, so she has an older brother that's, sixteen months older than her, and then her baby brother, who is about four years younger, than her. Kathleen: And it was hard you know, first trying to think if you can just keep the entire subject matter away from them both. Mm-hmm. Can we hide it, right? And, that's pretty impossible. I mean, there were times that my kids would, you know, come into my bathroom and see me in the fetal position on the floor crying. Kathleen: And, "What's the matter, Mommy?" And, you know, it's just like, who do you, do you save here? how do you keep that balance in your house? it's almost impossible. Who do you protect? Uh, who do you save? [00:09:00] Sometimes that answer changes by the hour. There were moments where Molly was in active crisis and needed immediate help, and there were other moments my younger son was quietly carrying fear, resentment, confusion, and loneliness for years. Kathleen: And I made the mistake of assuming that because he wasn't screaming for help, that he must be okay. And you're not okay at all. You're just adapting. Dominique: Yeah. It's a survival mechanism. Yeah. Kathleen: When Dominique: you understand that your sibling who is in a crisis, or if you're a younger child, maybe you don't understand and have the language to recognize that it's a crisis, but you understand that there's something immediate going on, there's part of you that understands, "Okay, what I need or what I feel is less important right now." Dominique: Right. So you take on that role of minimizing how you feel [00:10:00] or just downplaying, you know, what you might be experiencing because you don't wanna be a burden to one or either of your parents. That's an incredibly difficult spot, especially when there's two other children that you're thinking of. Was there ever, like, a specific scenario or situation where you were faced between protecting either of your sons or Molly, and how did you make that decision if you had to? Kathleen: There were lots of situations, but I'll talk about drug use in the home and how I dealt with that at the time and- How I came into harm reduction, which I think is a natural thing for mothers to do, but we just get a lot of grief for it. I was just a mom taking care of a child that might die and doing what mothers do. Kathleen: My oldest son had moved out and gone to college, and my younger son was still in the house, and Molly [00:11:00] was using drugs in the room next door. I just knew that I needed to do something about that. It wasn't okay for a sister to be shooting up heroin in the room next door. If I asked her to leave, that would mean putting her on the streets, and sometimes we don't have a choice but to do that. Kathleen: But I would recommend trying everything before you do that because the streets are not safe and children get, get worse. Dominique: Mm-hmm. Kathleen: This last go-around with a return to use for my daughter, my-- she was on the streets for a year, so I can speak personally to what goes on down there and it's not safe and our children tend to get worse. Kathleen: So I spoke to my whole family. I was very transparent about it, and I moved Molly to my backyard. We lived on an acre, so I had a lot-- some privacy, and I put her in a tent [00:12:00] And she at the time had a car, and so she had a curfew to come back to sleep in the tent. She wasn't allowed to bring anyone else to our home, which she violated once, but we had a good conversation around that, and she never violated it again. Kathleen: and so she slept in a tent in my backyard for about six months until we could figure out what to do next But I would let her in to use the bathroom. I would have her for dinner every night. I would let her in to take a shower. And was it weird? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh, did it work at that time? I think so. Kathleen: I mean, I can talk to my youngest son now, and although he couldn't really quite understand why I didn't just throw her out of the house I think in hindsight now he can look back on that and say at [00:13:00] least he felt safe. Dominique: Mm-hmm. Kathleen: You know, she had also been stealing some of his toys. That's not okay. Kathleen: So I had to protect him, and I also had to protect her, and I think my compromise was the best, and we tried to keep a very open, conversation about it. Now, Joey, my youngest son, did have to give up some things. He wasn't comfortable having friends over, as an example. Dominique: Mm-hmm. Kathleen: but we tried to talk through those situations, and I tried to do extra things to take him and his friends out for dinner or, you know, because- he was embarrassed of his sister. Kathleen: So that's what I did Dominique: That's a very tough spot to be in because you have three children, they all probably have very different needs. Yeah. And you're attending to all of them at the same time, and it's a constant [00:14:00] choosing your battle that's probably going on. And I think having Molly in a tent, I think, is a perfect example of harm reduction, Dominique: That might not work for some people, and it might work for others, but at the end of the day, that's what's working for Molly and for your family. Parents especially need to understand that every family and every person who's using substances is gonna be in a totally unique situation, and it's very important to remember they're gonna need something different from you than the next person will need. Kathleen: People are like, "I don't know what to do. I can't have them in their..." You know, they, maybe there's small children in the house. I mean, all of those are, like, completely legitimate issues. But I'm gonna be the mom that says, "Can they stay in the garage?" You know, can you just get them housed while you work on what the next steps are? Kathleen: Ca- Is there an aunt and uncle that could maybe take this on, but don't have children in the home? Is there a shed on somebody else's property? You know, I'm gonna go there first. But I [00:15:00] know some, some people just have no choice but- Dominique: Yeah ... Kathleen: you know, to have their child- Dominique: Yeah ... Kathleen: uh, go on the street. And I don't judge any of that. Dominique: I mean Absolutely. Depending on the situation, it's needed. And I think also depending on the living circumstance, it's probably just not feasible. Like, my parents and I, we lived in an apartment. My situation's a little bit different 'cause I'm about 10 years older than my brother, Justin. And so when his chronic substance use got really bad, I had already moved out of the home. Dominique: Okay. So I was less of a person that needed to be concerned about in terms of safety and welfare just 'cause I wasn't there. But when he was younger, it was really tough because when he started experimenting with substances and I was living at home, and we grew up in a one-bedroom apartment. So there was just not a lot of space for us to go, and we were all in each other's physical space. Dominique: And I think he must have been about 14, so I must have been about 23-ish or so at the time, and I realized that he was rummaging through my things, [00:16:00] looking for something. I told my parents about it, and I knew nothing was gonna happen because there was no consequence because nothing had happened so far. Dominique: At that age, I decided to go stay in a hotel for a couple days, not just because I felt like I needed to for my safety, but I was just so frustrated and so upset that my parents would, cover up for him or just, you know, downplay the severity of what was going on. Because I was an older child and because there was no, quote, "imminent threat" to me I was just also a priority. Dominique: My emotional needs were overlooked. And I was frustrated, and that was one of the reasons in why I ultimately ended up moving out Kathleen: parents need to keep their other children safe. And I think parents just get so wonky, like, "Okay, so maybe I need to remove them from the home. They're gonna be homeless. If I'm too hard on them, they're gonna use more drugs." Kathleen: You know, I mean, they get into this, like, [00:17:00] crazy sort of justification. Dominique: Yeah. Kathleen: And, you know, we talk in our group and hear from experts a lot around boundaries. And when there was no children at our home, and she was still using, with drips and drabs of sobriety attempts here and there, we put locks on all our rooms. Kathleen: We also took the lock off her room and the lock off her bathroom. And we were protecting ourselves, given the situation, without having to scream and yell at her that she is a liar and a thief. You know, those are- Yeah ... symptoms of addiction, and she already is beating herself up enough, right? She already knows all that. Kathleen: But we also needed to hang on to our stuff. She stole hundreds of thousands of dollars'- Yeah ... worth of stuff, and we just [00:18:00] needed to put an end to that. I remember my sister coming over to the house and, you know, I'm, I said, "Come back to my room and I'll get you something." And then she sees me with the keypad, and she's like, how do you live like this?" Kathleen: And I'm like, "Well, you know, Sis, if your daughter was in a wheelchair You know, when you build ramps in your house? Dominique: Hmm. Kathleen: And that's kind of how I feel about this. I can't stop this behavior. This is not who my daughter is. She doesn't, you know, she wasn't raised with a moral compass to- Dominique: Right ... Kathleen: steal stuff. She is using drugs, and so the drugs, you know, need to be bought, and so she needs money to buy those, and she's gonna buy them whether she steals stuff from me or not. Kathleen: So what do I do? I have to, you know, I have to begin to put up some boundaries, and some of those look [00:19:00] physical, to keep myself safe. Dominique: Absolutely. Kathleen: And I don't, yeah, and I don't think we do that enough with siblings. Dominique: Yeah. Right? I think it's so important that you're talking about this. I think, like, in my experience, when my parents and I were talking about putting up locks in our homes, we were shunned with the idea, like how could you even think about that? Dominique: Like, you're allowing them to do this. You're not allowing them if you're putting up these physical boundaries in place to protect yourself. And there's something that you touched on that I really wanna emphasize, is not having locks on doors or on certain doors in the home, especially if it's your child who's using substances or certain bathrooms that they might use. Dominique: I read that most overdoses actually happen at home. Kathleen: Hmm. Yep. Dominique: And my brother has survived an overdose at home. His, his first one was actually at home. Yeah. And if it wasn't for my brother not having a lock on his door, my mom was the one that found him and was able [00:20:00] to save him because she noticed the signs and was able to get access to it. Dominique: And my brother has passed out several times in our bathroom at home, and we would need to bust in there to check in on him and make sure that he was okay. So I really wanna emphasize the importance of thinking about which doors you have locks on, and prioritizing protecting yourself, but also thinking about what that means in protecting them, if you choose to keep them in the home. Dominique: So I think it's just, it's not spoken about enough. Kathleen: Yeah. I have a few of those situations I've dealt with myself, so, you know. And you get the backlash, you know- Mm-hmm ... from, from the child, and, "I need my privacy." Like- Yeah ... well, you know, this is how it is. and you have a bed to sleep in, and yes, if I- Want to, I will open your door. Kathleen: I'll knock, and if you don't answer, I'm gonna open it. I've had to reverse overdoses, , from my own child, and it's-- I, I wouldn't wish that on any mother. But I'm [00:21:00] glad that I had the structure in place so that it made it easier. You know, I had Narcan in every corner of my entire home. Dominique: It's an impossible situation to be in, but it's one of those situ-situations where if you're in that situation, you wanna know what to do, and you wanna feel equipped to handle it if it comes down to it. Dominique: I think it's a good Kathleen: plan. This one is a mental health and medical issue, and so you need to have the right equipment. Dominique: Yeah, absolutely. Kathleen: Right? If you're caring for someone that is really sick, you need to have the right equipment in your home to take care of them in the event something happens. Dominique: Absolutely. I wanna go back to, like, building boundaries and, like, how does a parent decide if they're in this weird place of figuring out, do I have my child live at home? Do I not have my child live at home? What kind of boundaries can I put in place? How can they decide what kind of boundaries work for them and for their family, while still prioritizing the wellbeing of other [00:22:00] children or other family members that are in the home? Kathleen: Boundaries are so individualized and so tricky, and I think so many parents don't try to create them because it feels like abandonment. Dominique: Mm-hmm. Kathleen: Uh, and so they don't deal with it at all. But, you know, chaos can become its own kind of abandonment for the rest of the family. So if there are other people living in the home, involving those people is a must. Kathleen: If there's littles in the home and there is drug use, the question almost gets removed unless you have a drug user that is willing to use drugs, like, in the garage or has a, safe injection spot that never moves from that spot. Dominique: Mm-hmm. Kathleen: And I do know situations like that [00:23:00] where that happens. But endangering other people's lives, you know, is a, boundary for me. Kathleen: You know, when my daughter started using fentanyl, this is, just sounds crazy, but I wish there was heroin around again. Dominique: The poet in me right Kathleen: now Dominique: is insane. I was like, wait, wait. Kathleen: Why did I say that? I mean, it's a short-acting opioid and, and they pass out for, you know, a long time, so that just became a, that just became a hard stop for me. Kathleen: You cannot use that drug in this house. Dominique: Yeah. Kathleen: And you're too sloppy. Kids know what's going on. Dominique: Yeah. Kathleen: Even little kids. Like, they are a lot smarter than we give them credit for, and I think early education for a sibling is also good to talk about in, you know, in an age appropriate manner. Kathleen: You know, I think it's not good to try to hide the situation. I did that. A- and, [00:24:00] you know, now in conversations with my children, I see how that impacted them. You know, they say addiction is a family disease. I don't really like that saying 'cause it rubs me the wrong way, but it does affect everyone in the family. Kathleen: Right. Uh, and you know, for me, you know, I got, because my oldest son went off to college and moved away, my youngest son, you know, actually couldn't wait to get out of the house because of the chaos. I put my youngest son in the position of having to be the perfect child that never messed up about anything. Kathleen: Yeah. So, like, that environment in our family dynamics Really made him have to be like the strong kid, right? Dominique: Absolutely. Kathleen: He's 31, and he's a new father. I, I lost my husband about a year and a half ago, and so both of my [00:25:00] sons moved back in the house with me after being out for about 10 years. Kathleen: now I got a 35-year-old and a 31-year-old, and I'm really trying to, re-parent- Yeah ... and, and have adult conversations of what happened in their childhood as a result of their sister using drugs. And my youngest had to become, you know, like the incredibly capable- Mm-hmm One, you know, and put everyone else's needs first. Dominique: There's a term for that. We call that, like, the parentified child. Kathleen: Okay. Dominique: Who usually minimizes their own needs because they take on these either parent-like roles, or they take on the roles and responsibilities of being the mature kid and kind of put their needs on the back burner. So I can totally empathize with your [00:26:00] son. Dominique: As a result of that, one or more parents usually looks at that child and leans on them for support because they just seem to always have their shit together. And it's- It's not Kathleen: good ... Dominique: and it's not, it's not good for either person. Right. Did you ever find that to be, like, a situation that you found yourself in? Dominique: Yes. Wondering like, "Okay, like, is it okay for me to talk to him about this?" Towing, like, a weird line between mom/child versus friend to friend. Kathleen: Totally. And I'm actually... I actually had that situation with my older son. Dominique: Okay. Kathleen: And we're going through it now. When my husband died you know, my husband was the person I talked to about everything, and he was the protector. Kathleen: So when Molly needed to get chased, and I mean- Mm-hmm ... physically chased. Dominique: Right. Kathleen: You know, when there was, uh, an emergency situation, the calls in the middle of the night, [00:27:00] "I've been beaten up. I've been raped. I don't know where I am." I mean, the, all that stuff. My husband was, the person that jumped up, got into action. Kathleen: Yeah. So I'm working the phone on the other end and literally, figuratively chasing and finding our daughter and bringing her home. Yeah. So he dies. My daughter returns to use, is on the streets, and all of a sudden my oldest son starts to pick up this role that he watched his father do. Dominique: Yeah. It probably felt natural, too. Dominique: Like- Oh, yeah ... there was no other option, right? This is what I'm supposed to do now. Who else is Kathleen: gonna do it? Totally natural. I didn't realize that he had put his ph- his sister's phone. You know, we all share a plan. Right. So he was tracking her every move, and he was looking at it, like, 20 times a day And I [00:28:00] was like, "Oh my God, my poor son." Kathleen: You know? Yeah. So I'm like, I'm like, "We really had to sit down and unwind that." And I'm like, you know, "Thank you, son, for you're the, the patriarch- Dominique: Right ... Kathleen: of our family now. But, you know, we have to take all this trauma and behavior, and we gotta put an end to it. We don't wanna carry this forward in our generation. Kathleen: Like, that's not your job And, but it was- Yeah ... I didn't help because it was easy. You, I didn't have anyone to talk to about this stuff. Right. And so he was there, and he got right into it, and I got right into it with him, and it became very dysfunctional. Fortunately, you know, I'd been working on myself a long time. Kathleen: I, I was able to recognize what was happening and unravel that get him into therapy [00:29:00] to help unravel that. can't save his sister. He couldn't save his father. he can only save himself and show up in our family, you know, as the new patriarch, helping us move forward, right? Like leading our family in, in song and Kathleen: You know, we have grandkids, you know, are coming now and what's our new family dynamic gonna look like- Dominique: Right ... Kathleen: now that Molly's back in recovery? And so he's become very protective. Like, you know, when I said, "You know, I don't know if Molly's gonna come," he's like, "It's all right, Mom. She doesn't come." Kathleen: You know? It's like, you know, it's like, "You know, come on, she'll be all right. She's all right. Don't even worry about it." You know? Yeah. Let's you and I go out for..." I mean, you know, like starting to help me- Yeah, absolutely ... kind of like shift the conversation. And even then, Dominique: I think it's even natural for one or more [00:30:00] child to even, you know, not be a worrier anymore and to kind of share that with the parent and say like, "Hey, it's gonna be okay. Dominique: Like, we're gonna figure this out together." And I think sometimes kids can, or adult children can still take on that kind of role of being the reassurer, right? And I think it's very natural, and I also want sibling to understand, like it's not your job to fix anyone, but you can still be there for your parent, your sibling in a way that works for you without feeling the need to fix every little thing. Dominique: Because nine times outta 10, not every single thing is an emergency, even though it always feels like an emergency. Remembering that not every little thing is a crisis helps you be more aware and assure of yourself on how to act if there really is a crisis that you can support Kathleen: with. sat both of my boys down- Dominique: Mm-hmm Kathleen: and apologized and took responsibility [00:31:00] for the role that I played, and I've had amazingly great conversations with them a- as a result, right? And, and even if my daughter returns to use again, I am, thanks to people like you and other people that write in this space, I think I'm in a much better and healthier position with my adult sons than I have ever been. Kathleen: You know, and sometimes, like, I think, you know, gosh, would I have these incredible relationships with my children if all of this hadn't happened? Right. Dominique: Yeah. Kathleen: That's real. I'm not, I'm just a better, I'm just a better person. I'm a better, I'm a better friend, I'm a better mother, I'm a better boss. Um- Dominique: Yeah, I feel a lot of these life challenges really teach you empathy, and they force you to look at things from different perspectives, whether or not you like [00:32:00] it, and I think that's such an important skill that, you know, fortunately or unfortunately, often is born out of trauma and these really extravagant life experiences that happen. Dominique: And I think we talk a lot about the negative sides of what addiction can do to a family, but I think children especially inherit some of the strongest traits being independent sometimes to a fault. You know, sometimes it's hard to accept help and support from other people. And for parents too, sometimes you figure, "I've done it all, so I don't need the support that I might think I do, because it's just me, myself, and I in the game." Kathleen: Parents need permission to stop pretending that we can do this perfectly. I mean, we're, we're human beings- I think that's right ... responding to trauma in real time, and w- we're just not gonna execute it beautifully. And it's okay, and in fact, powerful, I think, to sit and look in [00:33:00] your child's eyes and say, "I'm sorry," And take your part, right? Kathleen: Yeah. Take your part, what you can change, and work on that yourself. Dominique: Absolutely. I think a lot of, especially adult children who are on the other side now, whether their sibling is in recovery or not, is they want to repair the relationship with their parents. and I think one of the most important things is wanting to feel seen and heard and understood by their parents, that their experiences are important. Dominique: So I love that you're even talking about, you know, taking personal accountability and just understanding we're all doing life for the first time too. Like, we're all figuring it out as we go. And when possible, like giving each other some grace to figure it out. Kathleen: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, repairing relationships now, you know, has to start with honesty, you know, not defensiveness, not explaining [00:34:00] away. Kathleen: just honesty. Saying things like- "I see now what you're carrying. I'm sorry for the ways that you felt alone." Dominique: Yeah. " Kathleen: And honey, you deserve support too." Dominique: Absolutely. I love that. Kathleen: Yeah, I think adult children don't need perfection from us as nearly as much as they need truth and accountability. Dominique: 100%. I totally agree with that. I think it reminds you that you're human and that you recognize the faults in the situation, and that especially for the parents doing the work to make amends and do the work to improve the relationship, I think it all starts with recognizing where you guys have both come from. Dominique: Do you feel like when it comes to your children, is there anything in particular that you wish your children knew about each other's experiences that maybe they didn't really understand back [00:35:00] then? Kathleen: I mean, I think I put all my cards on the table with my children. Dominique: Mm-hmm. Kathleen: I think I've been really honest with them. Kathleen: I feel a sense of purpose now to bring their attention to generational trauma. Dominique: Mm-hmm. Kathleen: And our family has, been through a lot, and I'm trying to get everyone, to wrap their heads around moving forward, right? I think I've said my amends. You know, I don't wanna talk about addiction all the time in my family. Kathleen: It's old for them. I've given them resources, you know, people like you, where they can have peers and not feel so alone if they [00:36:00] need it. And I think now our journey is one of, uh, role modeling, right? I feel like I need to be a role model in my children's life about perseverance and accountability and honesty and moving forward. Kathleen: Yeah. Do you want me to read you, the love story I wrote them yesterday for- Mother's Day? Dominique: Sure, I'd love to hear it. While you're pulling that up, one of the things I just wanna touch on is I love that you talked about having conversations that aren't just around addiction. I've brought this up with my mom, you know, plenty of times, and I'm like, "Can we just talk about something that's not related to addiction or his recovery or when he's coming back home from his program and, like, all this stuff?" Dominique: 'Cause it's like even when they're good conversations, it's exhausting to talk about addiction Kathleen: Wow. Dominique: Or recovery and [00:37:00] relapse. But I think showing natural curiosity and being inquisitive about what's happening in your other children's lives is important, too, to make those repairs in the relationship. Kathleen: Yeah, I Dominique: agree. Dominique: Thank you. Kathleen: Okay, you wanna hear my, uh, love letter to my kids? Dominique: Yeah. Let's hear it. Do I need to grab a box of tissues before you Kathleen: start? We call ourselves the Cochran pile, and that came 'cause we used to, for whatever reason, we thought it was so funny that, you know, Dad would lay down, I would lay on top of him, and then we'd pile on top of each other. Dominique: I love that. Kathleen: And then fall over in the bed and laugh, laugh like crazy people. Okay, so here it is, my beautiful pile. Mother's Day always feels too small for what motherhood really is. It's not one day. It's a lifetime of carrying people in your heart even when they're far away. It's joy and terror existing side by side. Kathleen: It's pride so deep it aches. It's loving people through becoming. When I [00:38:00] look at our family, I do not see perfection. I see a life built in layers. I see Joe, that's my husband, everywhere still, in the strength of our boys, in the way we protect each other, in cowboy hats, old stories, stubbornness, laughter, and the kind of love that always shows up and stays. Kathleen: I see Ian, my firstborn, who made me a mother first, the one who opened my heart into a place it's never been before. There's something sacred about that first child. Every version of motherhood began there. I see Joey wearing his father's wedding jacket and somehow carrying both the past and the future at the same time. Kathleen: I see Yadira, that's my daughter-in-law, with my mother's ring on her hand becoming parts of a thread that keeps our family stitched together. I know some parts of motherhood and daughterhood carry wounds that never fully leave us. [00:39:00] Separation, longing, rebuilding, finding your way back to yourself and your children. Kathleen: Those stories live quietly besides the beautiful ones, too. I see sweet baby Jolene, that's my new granddaughter, new life blooming right into the middle of grief and love and memory. And today I see Molly Dominique: I know this Mother's Day carries both hope and heartbreak for her. A mother sitting at a table where her son is missing from her arms, there's no clean language Kathleen: for that kind of path. Kathleen: But I also see her fighting back towards herself and toward him with honesty, courage, and love. Sometimes healing doesn't happen in a straight line. Sometimes motherhood means holding onto the thread even when everything feels tangled. That's part of our family story, too. The truth is, families are not built in easy moments. Kathleen: They're built in hospital rooms, courtrooms, long phone calls, belly laughs, forgiveness, heartbreak, Sunday dinners, [00:40:00] tears in parked cars, tiny baby socks, weddings, funerals, and a million invisible moments where we choose each other again and again. That is us. Some seasons we have held each other up, some seasons we've just simply held on. Kathleen: And through it all we have remained stronger than something other than circumstances. Love, real love. The kind of love that leaves fingerprints on generations. On this Mother's Day, I do not just celebrate being a mother, I celebrate all of you for making me one. Thank you for every hug, every hard conversation, every memory, every second, every chance, every new beginning. Kathleen: Thank you for making my life mean far beyond myself. No matter where life takes us, no matter how much changes, this will always be my greatest treasure. Proud of being part of this beautiful, loud, complicated, and resilient pile. Dominique: I absolutely... [00:41:00] I should have grabbed the, the tissue box. Kathleen: Oh, Dominique: yeah. Well, one, thank you so much for sharing that with me. Dominique: It's obviously so incredibly heartfelt, and you put a lot of time and thought into putting that pen to paper. The one line that really got me, I mean, it all got me, but the one line that really stood out to me and I felt the tug was when you said sometimes it's holding onto that thread, and that motherhood is built in hospital rooms and courtrooms, because I think that's the part that gets unnoticed, and that's really what, when it feels like there's nothing to hold onto and you're just holding on for anything. Dominique: Even though I'm not a mom, I felt the exact same way with my brother. Thank you so much for sharing that with everyone. Thank you for Kathleen: letting me share it. Dominique: How are you most proud of yourself for showing up for your children today, and what would you want parents who are in a similar place to hear from you? Kathleen: I'm most proud [00:42:00] of myself for doing some work on my trauma and my grief, because I know that I'm Showing up for my children in a different way right now. It feels really healthy. I can still be sad, I can still be scared, but I desperately want to have meaningful, functional, truly adult relationships with my children. Kathleen: They're super cool and interesting and fascinating, and I feel that I missed a lot. I'm wanting to catch up. and so I'm proud of myself for giving myself time, leaning into my grief around the loss of my husband and their father. I feel like I'm role modeling what that looks like, and it's okay. Kathleen: I'm patch... I'm repairing. I'm in repair You [00:43:00] are carrying more fear, shame, exhaustion, and heartbreak than most people around you will ever understand. And yet you wake up every day trying to love your child through this incredibly complicated circumstance. Please stop measuring yourself against perfection. Kathleen: Love your children honestly. Protect peace where you can. Get support. Tell the truth. Repair when needed. And remember that no one gets through this untouched, including you. Dominique: Listening to you say that, I wanted to record it and share it with my mom, like, right now. Kathleen: I'm meeting your mom. I'm meeting your mom. Kathleen: That's it. Yeah. We'll definitely Dominique: have to make that happen, for sure. Kathleen: Well, I... Well, you know why? Because I would like to tell her what an amazing young woman she has raised. Dominique: Thank Kathleen: you. You are a very, very [00:44:00] impressive young woman, so I would like to tell her. We don't get told enough how great our kids are. Kathleen: Yeah. So I wanna tell her. Dominique: I really appreciate that. Kathleen: Yeah. It's my pleasure. It's my, been my pleasure being with you and learning about you and, and I hope I can always be in your world. Thank you for helping others. Thank you for helping my kids. Dominique: I really appreciate that. I'm, you know, I definitely feel like I've learned a lot about the parent experience in this process. Dominique: I think siblings, especially children in general, can look at things in a very one-minded approach. It's always about me, me, me, when you're a kid, and I think that perspective definitely opens as you get older, and then also as you can see things from your own parents' perspective, so- Kathleen: Mm-hmm ... Dominique: thank you for adding another lens to that. Dominique: And for those that are listening, we'll be doing a session in the MAP group on Facebook July 1st. So if anyone wants to join the group I will put that in the show notes down below, and they can join then on [00:45:00] July 1st. And please leave a comment and let us know what your experience as a parent has been like. Dominique: Thanks for listening to this episode of For Love of Recovery. If you enjoyed this episode or know somebody who might, please leave a comment and share it. You can also join our Facebook group, siblings for Love of Recovery. If you're looking to have deeper conversations around your siblings drug or alcohol addiction. And remember whether there's hope, there's healing.