“Do they deserve my love?" 5 mindset shifts for loving through addiction (with Joseph Green)
About the episode:
When someone you love is struggling with addiction, the questions can feel relentless:
Do they deserve my love right now? Am I enabling them? Should I cut them off?
In this conversation, we unpack one of the most harmful parts of addiction: the story surrounding it.
We get into five mindset shifts that will challenge the way you’ve probably been taught to think about addiction — questioning the idea that love has to be earned, confronting the moral judgment we attach to substance use, untangling the fear around “enabling,” wrestling with whether cutting someone off actually helps, and examining the labels we throw around when we’re hurt or scared.
If you’ve ever felt stuck between protecting your own sanity and not abandoning someone you love, this conversation isn’t about being politically correct — it’s about getting honest about what fear is driving, and deciding whether you want to keep loving from that place.
Guest: Joseph Green, spoken word artist, educator, CEO of LMS Voice, and person in recovery
Joseph helps individuals and organizations harness their stories to inspire meaningful change.
Having facilitated more than 5,000 workshops nationwide, Joseph guides students, professionals, and communities through essential conversations about substance use recovery, mental health, social justice, and youth empowerment. He has delivered keynotes for organizations like Google, SAMHSA, the National Council for Mental Wellbeing, and engages directly with schools and communities— helping to ensure every story resonates deeply. Joseph’s work has been featured in the award-winning documentary Tipping the Pain Scale, as well as in the CDC and Ad Council’s Recovery Starts With Hope campaign.
This episode will help you:
Move from fear-driven reactions → to intentional, grounded decisions about how you show up
Shift from “they need to earn my love” → to understanding inherent worth, even in active addiction
Go from black-and-white thinking (enable vs. cut off) → to tailored, compassionate boundaries
Replace shame-based labels → with language and beliefs that support healing
Episode links
ABOUT OUR SPEAKER
Joseph Green: https://josephgreenspeaks.com/personal-statement
About LMS Voice: https://lmsvoice.com/productions/
START WITH HOPE
Start With Hope campaign stories: https://startwithhope.com/stories-of-hope
Take the Stories of Hope course and own your story: https://ncmwpic.learnupon.com/store/4553158-stories-of-hope-a-value-centered-approach-to-storytelling
Resources
💬 JOIN OUR SIBLING-FOCUSED COMMUNITY
Join our Facebook group, Siblings For Love of Recovery to:
Connect with other siblings
Share your own story in a safe space
Support for navigating the journey
🤳 CONNECT WITH FOR LOVE OF RECOVERY
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/forloveofrecovery
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61561542956095
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Joseph: [00:00:00] instead of telling a parent that the only way you can save your child is by cutting them off. Say, no matter what you choose to do, we're gonna be here to support you.
Dominique: Welcome to FLOR For Love of Recovery, where I'm your host, Dominique: Dajer. Sibling relationships can be so unique, but they can become more complex when there's drug or alcohol use involved. If you find yourself questioning how to help, you're not alone.
Every month we bring together stories that empower you to navigate your sibling's addiction and offer a sense of connection.
~We also provide fresh perspectives on understanding substance use and how to protect your peace. ~Join me on this journey in restoring hope and healing.
Dominique: There's a huge divide in how we talk about addiction and in turn, how we're talking about ourselves, how we're talking about our families and the types of language that we use that can make a difference.
Joseph, I'm super excited to have you on the show today and You being a storyteller, you understand the power of words. For those listening, Joseph Green, he's the CEO of LMS voice. He's also a written word artist, a motivational speaker and person in
[00:01:00] recovery.
Joseph: Hi, my name is Joseph Green. I talk a lot.
Dominique: Well this is a good place for you to be then.
Joseph: I know, right? Yeah. This is the right profession is hosting these and being hosted on them. I'm really excited to be here.
We're sort of in the microcosm of the recovery world right now.
Having conversations about how we have conversations is so important because there are so many things, in between our humanities. Absolutely. So thank you for having me.
Dominique: And thank you for having us in your space. So for those that are watching we are in Joseph's studio. So thank you for making this accessible for us today. Really appreciative
of it.
So Before we get into it, Joseph and I know each other from our work with the Start With Hope campaign, which was run in partnership between the ad council and the National Council for Mental Wellbeing.
Joseph helped me craft my story around what it means to find hope in addiction and recovery and as I've navigated my brother's substance use. So thank you. We'll get into a little bit about that today.
You actually shared some of your [00:02:00] work with me this week creating two different stories both moms who have two sons in recovery or in active addiction.
And one person said something that I thought was really powerful in how we talk about substance use and how we talk about how we help someone. And Shelly said, treating my son as if he had brain cancer, because she talks about her daughter's friend who's suffering from brain cancer.
And the way we talk about addiction is so different. The way we approach it is so different. And I wanna know from you, like families often tell harsher stories about addiction than they do about other mental health issues, about depression, diabetes, cancer. Why is that? Why is the story between addiction and other diseases or other illnesses so different?
Joseph: It's easier to draw a line between the actions of someone who's in addiction and the consequences of their actions than it is, say, someone with cancer, right?
We live in a [00:03:00] society where we are surrounded by things that increase our chances of having cancer, right?
That you have to go through this. And if you are a person with addiction, it's your fault. And yeah, it sucks, but the only way for you to get better is, willpower bootstraps. Mm-hmm. And if you don't have that in you either you don't love your family enough or you don't love your life enough or you, and like if someone passes away from cancer, you don't say they did it because they didn't love their family enough.
Even if they, the folks who get through my father had cancer, he got through, my father also had addiction. He got through and neither of the reasons why he got through was his love for family. They were motivating factors in his mind. They probably helped him have a more positive attitude or try a treatment or do something different.
But it wasn't the reason they were medical reasons why he was able to get past these things.
Yeah.
In both spaces. But if he had passed [00:04:00] away from cancer, you wouldn't have been like, that's your fault.
It's so
Dominique: so like you raised two really good points. One being environmental. Like if someone unfortunately as diagnosed with cancer, you might be looking at the environmental factors and how that might have contributed. But do we ask the same question when it comes to substance use?
What environmental factors have potentially influenced that person's, substance use and then also the choice in the matter. Some people might look at addiction as, you know, you're choosing to use substances. However, I think the initial choice comes when you first pick up. However, quickly spirals after that.
It no longer becomes a choice, but more so a thing of survival, which I think is very different when someone, no one's choosing to, you know, be diagnosed with another terminal illness.
Joseph: The dude who plays um, which one? Okay. Which one? Tom holland, the most recent dude plays
Dominique: Is in
right. so
Joseph: Yeah, I watching an interview with him and he was like. If someone came [00:05:00] right now and alcohol that had not been invented said, I have this thing right, and if you try it, there's a percentage that you are going to have a good time and walk away and everything's fine. But there's also a percentage that you are going to form a habit to this and you're going to treat people that you care about the most awfully, and you're going to lose touch with your dreams in reality maybe.
And it's going to kind of convince you that you can do things that you shouldn't be able to do and so on and so on so forth. Like Immediately it sounds like an awful bead. Right?
This is not me having an argument like sobriety for everybody and so on and so forth, like, you can't a kid in a candy shop and be mad when get a cavity.
Dominique: Absolutely. I also about the importance of like an informed decision. Yeah, like an informed choices
Joseph: I like to think that some of the work I do [00:06:00] is about treating young people as intelligent beings and giving them the tools with which to make a decision.
The tools which to decode media, the tools with which to understand that they can still love and respect their parents, but make choices that are different than
Dominique: I definitely agree with that. I think A lot of the times we talk about, using fear as a tactic too discourage people from either using substances or kids experimenting with drugs and alcohol or even sex. That's where the power of having those conversations.
If, substance use runs in the family, then I think that's an opportunity to talk to your teenager or young adult about here all the things that have occurred.
Here's what you should know about, you know, drugs or alcohol. And the person is probably gonna make their decision on their own whether or not you like it. And I think at that point, at least let them make an informed decision so that way they can move more wisely.
Joseph: There's also, and this is a less popular stance, 'cause this steps on the of folks who only [00:07:00] understand addiction as, person on the side of the road, or the person who's getting in a bar fight or committing domestic violence or whatever it is.
Like that's their only idea of what a person with a or alcohol problem looks like. And there's Slow death.
Mm-hmm. There's fast death. Right. I think, um, A friend of mine, I'm about to like hella paraphrase her quote, but, um, but it's like people can understand like an opioid pandemic because people are dying quickly.
It's a lot harder. Right. To understand that just because you don't have a physically debilitating addiction to a substance. Like it's a spectrum of issues. It's the mother who has half a bottle of Chardonnay every day after work. And what are they detaching from in that moment. There's a lot of, in the middle. And the question for [00:08:00] society, I think less than should we be helping people with addiction and have compassion for people with addiction.
Problems is we should be having compassion and conversations about people no matter where they lie on the spectrum. 'cause just because it's not killing you right now, or you're not in danger of doing something dangerous right now, percent doesn't mean your life couldn't be better if this thing wasn't there.
My personal journey was hard drugs. And I stopped doing those hard drugs and I thought, okay I've done the thing that I need to do. I've gotten over the hump.
And I only did drugs. I only drank as hard as I did because I was doing hard drugs. Now I have control of that, so I definitely will have control of my drinking and so on, so forth. It took maybe five years before I came to the conclusion that actually I don't have addiction in the same way where if I don't have a drink, I'm gonna flip out. But it's, it is my [00:09:00] way of self soothing. If you do that five days a week.
One glass is not gonna be enough.
Then you start showing up late to work. Then your kid brings something to you and you don't remember doing it, or you play it a little too rough or it's like, oh crap, I drank, but I was supposed to pick my kid up from this thing, so now I'm drinking and driving.
Like and you can still work, right? You're still functional for the most part. No one really knows that you have a problem, but your quality of life is poor.
I think that people would seek help sooner if we realize journey can be questioned also, and that I shouldn't be trying to fit in with the norm, because society's norm is not always The the right thing.
Dominique: It's gonna be very different for each person. You just brought up a great point that it's not always black and white when it comes to the degree of addiction or the substance use, because in our last episode we spoke to Marcy Hopkins and she talks about how she was suffering from alcohol use disorder, but to [00:10:00] your point, she wasn't, you know, exuding any crazy behavior on a daily basis.
Yeah. But it did get to the point where it's like, she's drinking and driving, or her relationship with her husband or her kids isn't what it should be. And she realized, that's when I noticed that I had a real problem. Yeah. It wasn't because there was some big traumatic thing that happened all the time.
It was just so when you start to question it, that might be the red flag that that person might need.
Yeah.
Yeah
Joseph: You have problems because you are human and you're alive and life is conflict. Right. But I drank to deal with my problems. And then the drinking skews your judgment, and then the problems become worse. And then you have that conversation where it's like, "well, it's not the drinking, it's the, all the issues I have."
Well, the drinking is keeping you from doing the hard work of facing the issues if you always have something to turn to and we're talking about, substances. But there are any number can turn to.
So I think that having that conversation, and one of the things why I think storytelling is important is is [00:11:00] until you hear sometimes your journey through someone else's ears, I didn't know. How wrong they were, because I've never had an example put in front of me. Yeah.
Because a lot of times it's hard to dream what you can't see. But it's also hard to conceptualize how broken things have become until you receive a reflection. With addiction, people compartmentalize.
They shade certain parts of their lives from certain people, right? Some people know these things. And all of that is to divert the direct reflection of your actions.
And if that's not happening in your life, sometimes it happens when you're scrolling and you see a clip and you're like, oh my God.
This speaks to me. Right.
Dominique: Especially with social media, it becomes an area of comparison. Yeah. one of the things that I think can be challenging and also came up in Marcy's episode is like. When we start to use words like alcoholic addict junkie, I feel like it for, it creates a very vivid image of a stereotypical person in people's minds.
Like you said, a lot of [00:12:00] the times people will assume that you're talking about the homeless person on the street, and while they might be someone who's struggling too, that's not the only representation of what it looks like to have a substance use problem.
There's a lot of dismay for using people first language. When I hear people say " what do you mean they're a person with a substance use disorder? Like, why don't you just say like, addict?"
Yeah. I think there's a lot of power in using that person first language, and I think there's a lot of power in not wanting to box someone into a potentially harmful label.
Joseph: Yeah. So my journey with people first, language and identity and titles and all of that goes back to the autobiography of Malcolm x.
Malcolm X is in prison, and I think he's still going by his street name, Detroit Red at that point. And he's approached by an elder and he gives them the dictionary and he says, I want you to go through the dictionary and I want you to [00:13:00] reverse. The meanings of the words in here. This is a Eurocentric book that was created to uplift one specific part of society.
And ~the example that they give,~ the first example they give is just simply the word black and the word white. Right? And you look up in the dictionary, it's softened through time, but like all of the things in society that we associate with the word black, 95% of them are unfortunate or tragic things.
We use the word black to describe, things that are soiled, that are dirty, that are broken, that are bad luck, bad omens, ~like all of these, like,~ and then you flip it and you see the word white and it's pure, pristine, so forth.
You realize that a word that you've been using to describe yourself proudly is also being used to describe all of these negative things, you start asking yourself, one, am I being affected by this? Like, does it change the way I think about myself at [00:14:00] all? or the way we think of ourselves as a collective group of people, whatever the word may be.
When I say chair, you think of a specific thing, right? What happens when a word brings up a detrimental image of a group of people?
So when I hear addict, all of the references, amalgamate in my brain. When the word addict has been on screen or used or whatever, right? It's easy to "other" because I don't look like that thing. It also makes it really difficult to accept that
have a problem because I don't
want to look like that thing.
Dominique: Right. Or you don't think that your, I hate using this term, but people use it a lot that bad. Right. Yeah. I'm I'm not an addict that, that's that Bad. bad Yeah. And I'm like I'm, I don't look like that, do I? So it's like, I don't, I couldn't possibly have a problem.
Joseph: there's this commercial, where it's like, what does it mean to run like a girl? And like, and the guys are like making these jokes and dah, dah, dah, dah da, But like, there's these young
Dominique: who have had
Joseph: a positive influence of what women and girls [00:15:00] do. Absolutely.
And they're like, this is what it looks like to run like a girl, so and so forth. And so you're seeing real time, right? Scientific experiment happening right in front of you. What happens when a word brings up a detrimental image of a group of people? 100%. Right?
~I have, I have~ My oldest, child is delivering
Dominique: first like direct
Joseph: valentine
today today. mm. The pressure on.
And everyone's like, and like, and like, and you know, everyone was like, do we talk 'em out of it? Do we let 'em do it? How do we let 'em, how do we brace 'em for what the reality of what could happen. That feeling right there where you want to wrap your arms around people and never let any of the bad things happen to them. Right? You can't create that perfect world because we're human, but you can strive for it.
So when you ask me why does it matter what word I use to describe a thing, that's why. If this word hurts people. Makes them feel bad, keeps them further away from the light and love and joy that we all hope to have in our life. Why is it [00:16:00] so hard for you to make that change and now are you living the conviction of your values that you say you have. That you consider your people to feel good?
Dominique: It's so interesting that you say that because I think sometimes we use that word right? especially if it's our loved one is like, they're just an addict, right?" and It also gives you like that cop out excuse to just dismiss who they are because that's all they'll ever be.
I remember going to Nar-Anon on meetings with my mom early on for those who are listening and don't know Nar-Anon on are support groups for friends and family members that have a loved one struggling with narcotics.
And I remember listening to the way this whole group of people is talking about addiction and they're using the word addict over and over. And I remember one member in particular says, I need to refer to my son as a junkie because that's the only way I'll be able to detach and disassociate and separate him from who he really is and him from being the addict.
And when I say that he's a junkie, as horrible as it sounds, it gives me the space to [00:17:00] detach and like cut him off. And I remember that story really struck me. Yeah. And after that, I was very intentional about never wanting to refer to my brother or any person that I knew as a junkie or an addict or in a negative way that they'll, that's all they'll ever be.
Because if I'm talking that way about this person that I love, how is the rest of society and the people that I know gonna look at and speak about this person or the next person, who's also struggling with substances?
Joseph: that's one half of it. And the other half is you are now using language to do what they are using drugs to do. All in the name of not feeling as bad. to justify your action for better Or for worse. There's a compassionate way to make hard choices.
Dominique: Mm.
Joseph: Am I doing this because I am full of shame for how this reflects back on me?
Dominique: Like they always say like, like the opposite of addiction is [00:18:00] connection.
If we keep moving in with this mindset of, you know, cutting them off, dismissing that that's all they'll ever be, it makes it harder because then you start to weaponize the way, love and support them and you start to exclude the possibility of still supporting them in a way that can be done so compassionately.
and I wanna think very tactically about the very specific types of mindset shifts that we need to make in order to make those compassionate changes. So for example, like one of the words that I hear a lot is Deserve. Yeah. Are they deserving of love? Are they deserving of support?
And my brother has been in recovery now almost a year coming up on April.
And as part of his, um, young adult treatment program, my parents and I go to a family support group. And a member there
had shared her story about her teenage daughter who was not ready to see her older brother at this treatment program.
And the younger daughter had said, he doesn't deserve my love. He didn't deserve the support, after everything that he put us through. And I think it's interesting to talk [00:19:00] about what does it mean to actually deserve love when you're in recovery or deserve love and support when you are in active addiction and you might be seeking recovery. You might not be. like, What does that really mean?
Joseph: I strongly dislike the word deserve. it is too easy. When you say someone isn't deserving of your love, what you are really saying is, I don't have it in me right now to overcome the feelings of hurt and pain to give you love.
It's choices. Choices have been made. And when someone is afflicted with something. Regardless of how they became afflicted with it. it. Your choice should be based on the type of world that you want exist
in. I am here not because I deserve to be here. I have the love of a good woman and two children, and a relationship with my son's mother. that's [00:20:00] positive. And mm-hmm. My is still in my life, not because I deserve it.
I can say there are things I've done to earn some of it, but even being put into the position to be able to earn it. It forces us to be accountable for our own actions, even when we choose hard, hurtful things because we've been hurt. Right? And then also on the flip side, the person who thinks they deserve the bad things that they have because of the bad things that they've done, mm-hmm. it gives them an opportunity to say, no, I can make different choices. Though I've done things that have caused harm.
and this is something that I'm really, I have a line and a poem that is while apologies are an important step, if the universe is to ever extract the remaining usefulness from us, forgiveness has to be an olive branch we eventually extend ourselves, right?
I've done bad things. Things that have caused harm. Things that have devalued other human beings. Things that have made people [00:21:00] sad or hurt them and could have been avoided. I've done those things, but if
I would have stopped with shame and guilt from those things, we wouldn't know each other. Absolutely.
Dominique: And it's so right. it's that you say that because I think deserve can also keep you stuck yeah in those very harmful patterns.
I think especially for people who, who struggle with, drug and alcohol use, you can say, I've done all these bad things to other people, or I've done all these bad things to myself and I've hurt those that I care about.
So I deserve all the negative things that the world feeds me. Right. Yeah. This is the price that I have to pay. And I think that mentality too can keep you stuck, and stop you from making a positive change for yourself, making a positive change for your family or your loved ones. So it's interesting when we think about, you know, you deserve the cards that you were dealt in, dealing with it versus taking away that mindset understanding, I didn't deserve this, this is what I experienced, and now I have the choice and the ability [00:22:00] to move forward in a way that works for me.
Joseph: Deserve is the cousin of privilege. It convinces you that certain people are chosen and certain people are not, and that's okay to allow for that type of injustice to exist in the world.
Absolutely. It takes away the onus on us. Like, oh man, you know, those poor people over there in that country without food. If they just got their stuff together,
when really if we look at the fact that there's enough food on the planet to feed everyone and enough healthcare to help everyone,
it's the system. And the system can only exist if there are people who
Dominique: who are willing to call those things out.
Joseph: Yeah.
Dominique: You know, it's so interesting. Going back to the videos that you shared with me and the content that you've been creating with these two moms, there was another woman who shared her story, Kathy.
And Kathy talks about, she was also going to support groups where it was, it felt very one minded, and she felt that she couldn't really bring herself to make the changes do [00:23:00] and do behaviors that people were suggesting until someone said, there's another way, there's another way to show up and love compassionately, rather than just perpetuating the same idea or belief in story.
Joseph: Yeah, it's interesting. So the rooms saved my life and by that I mean having some place to go
Dominique: mm-hmm.
Joseph: Where I knew I could be understood. And supported and held up. But after a while, it started to a hindrance because my journey needed something else.
I needed to be able to speak about it and share about it outside of people who were just being afflicted with the same thing. So you have someone who's in in AA and they are the type of person where if they have another drink, they're going to end up in a bender and who knows what happens. Right. But sitting next to them is somebody who has an issue with [00:24:00] self-regulation.
Mm-hmm.
And so they drink to feel better and they have a problem too. But this person needs to be in therapy, right. And this person they have a lack of connection in their life. And so they need to be with groups of people who are doing positive things to create that feeling of dopamine and joy and attachment.
So on. Like it varies what people need to get better, but because death is so scary and because there's so much shame around what it means to be addicted to something, people will make you feel bad. For wanting to try something else. Mm-hmm.
And they'll say, well, if you go out there by yourself, like we can't guarantee it's gonna work.
We can't guarantee that you're going to be able to, save your child or cer when The truth is that even if I stayed, you couldn't guarantee that.
Right. Because there are people in this room right now who've been here the whole [00:25:00] time and they still lost someone, right?
And so the goal is less about saving life and a, I think it should be about living better.
Dominique: Absolutely. And I think it's less about, you know, one approach versus another being the only way to do things. I think it's about finding the approaches that work best for you.
Depending on where you are in your substance use or in your recovery, you might need different resources at different times. Right. What might work for you might no longer serve you in a certain amount of time.
Yeah. So I think being amenable to the idea that, you know, you take what you can, you take what's helpful and you leave the rest and you find the resources that work best for you.
Joseph: Yeah, and I think instead of telling a parent that the only way you can save your child is by cutting them off. Say, no matter what you choose to do, we're gonna be here to support you.
Statistics may say this or that, but if I [00:26:00] started this journey saying that I love this child more than anything else. And i'm willing to do anything, and i'm never going to leave this child alone. Who am I to say that the material things that they may steal from me is more important than that promise?
Mm-hmm. Who's to say that their self-loathing is stronger than that promise? At the end of the day, death rate for us all is
Yeah, right. is 100%. Yeah. But I'm saying like we're all, we're all, it's not a matter of matter is it when? And so now, if that's the guiding principle, the only thing left is how do we live? Right? And so there's some people who will not be able to forgive themselves. Even though they should
But will not be able to forgive themselves for abandoning a child. And there will be folks who will not be able to forgive themselves for not abandoning a child.
Right. And the [00:27:00] reality you are now losing more life.
Dominique: You're bringing a perfect segue into like the next idea of what I hear a lot is like this fear of enabling.
Mm-hmm. I feel like the word enabling has developed such a negative connotation, especially with the rise of harm reduction resources.
And enabling is often confused with just basic human compassionate care and lifesaving resources. And I think we vilified the word enabling so that parents and families are shamed when they try to support their loved one, in the hopes that
they quote, reach their rock bottom. Which I also have a love hate relationship with that word. How do you define enabling and why has it developed this negative connotation, with basic human care?
Joseph: There should be one definition It shines a light on the reality that even if there is a concrete fact we are still influenced [00:28:00] by our own environment, our own experiences.
Dominique: I'm sure if you look up the definition of enable or enabling, it'll say to allow right, or to encourage but then I think when we use that definition to you apply it to like 12 step work or you apply it to harm reduction, it's, it's depending on the belief or the ideology, the definitions have been spun two totally different ways. This term enabling has brought so much pain and discourse and it's really divided, the addiction and recovery communities.
Joseph: It's really important to understand motivation behind the person when they're using it. if you are ever taking a term and using it to hurt or break somebody down, that has to do with who you are in your motivations in the moment.
Am I actively contributing, to the harm and detriment of another person? That's a a question that needs to be asked, right? How can I support someone who seems to be [00:29:00] hell bent on harming themselves on a regular basis? How do I support them without making it seem like I agree with their actions?
Dominique: I think that's, it's very well described and I think talking about, again, harm reduction. It's how am I reducing the harm associated with this person's choices. instead of putting or building these parameters around the choices you want them to make because you think you know best. But how can I support them and reduce the in the choices they're gonna make regardless?
I think back to my own personal experiences, again with my brother, and I think our family struggled for a long time with the idea of like, you know, giving him money to source whatever substances he was using. And I think that's something a lot of families can probably relate to and you're constantly raised the question.
I was always there for my brother, but I constantly went back and forth and there was this question stamped around my forehead am I [00:30:00] enabling him? Am I doing the bad thing? Should I be giving him money so he's not out for all hours of the night doing God knows what, right. Am I saving? Am I by doing that? Am I buying him some time off the street? And I think those types of questions that can be very easily rusted, that we can speak about that for an entire year having that conversation.
Joseph: Well, I, I think there's this misconception and this idea that people should be able to fix themselves through sheer willpower alone, right? And what's crazy to me is how many different things that we have in society that we know are harmful, but we make space for, right? Like right now, at whatever time of the day it is.
Mm-hmm.
I can go to a place where they have chairs for me. They have a warm and welcoming environment for me, and they have [00:31:00] food for me. And if I have money. They will give me a substance that could potentially kill me. But they have it advertised and while I'm in the place where this is happening, I can look up at the television and and that's perfectly normal. Right.
So if there were the same hospitable places for people who used other substances mm-hmm. Who were potentially needing that connectivity more than they needed the substance. if we didn't punish people for these things, like it wouldn't even be a question of like, well, how am I enabling, it's how is society forcing people to make decisions with limited resources and expecting the outcome to be positive, right? Like, why don't I have some place that I can go, right? If I'm feeling overwhelmed and the world is coming at me in [00:32:00] all sorts of ways? But we're also to wonder why so many people feel lost and have nowhere to go and turn to substances.
Dominique: It's so, It's so interesting because like you're saying, you can't just walk into like a drop-in center and get the mental health support you need. As quickly as you can walk into a bar or liquor store. Right. So I think it's also about how, like you said, society can enable that. if you think about your basic bar, no matter where you live, bar probably has a parking lot. Yeah. Or there's probably street parking right at front where you're more than welcome to park at.
And everyone knows if you're intoxicated, you shouldn't be drinking and driving. Right. It's not something that's really up for debate everyone, it's pretty much common knowledge, but we still encourage it. There's still a parking lot at the, you know, no one's stopping you from ordering alcohol at the, at a restaurant if they know you're driving.
And I think when we talk about other substances, it's, it's very demonized and it's very, it's looked at in a totally different perspective. And that's enabling, right?
Joseph: Prohibition teaches us right, that it's almost impossible to [00:33:00] govern good decision making, right? People are going to make the decisions that work best for them or, the more we get out there with these things there the better chance we have of affecting the world in a positive way.
Dominique: I wanna know, like get your perspective on what it means to be selfish or what that concept means to be selfish. How that might translate to families who might be, again, labeling their loved one as someone who's just being selfish and they're using substances because they're an asshole.
How much of selfishness would you say is truly survival?
Joseph: The reality is, is that everything we do is selfish. Even if I sacrifice for someone, I'm sacrificing either because of the feeling or emotion that I'm gonna get from doing it because I believe this person is worth it. It's because it's the type of world that I want to live in. So at the end of the day, even if I'm Mother Teresa, all of her acts of charity were also selfish acts because she was [00:34:00] contributing to the type of world that she wants Right?
And so when you think of it in that way, the idea of, you know, a person who is doing drugs is just being selfish.
Yeah. They feel bad without the substance and they want to feel good or normal or better again.
We don't necessarily face the repercussions for 'em. 'cause Nine times outta 10, when I'm doing that 90 miles an hour, I'm gonna get to where I'm going. Yeah. Right. And I'm gonna get there and no consequences whatsoever. Right, right. Maybe a ticket every once in a while, but it's very rare that I'm, you know, people are gonna face the consequences of that action.
And so it's something that we all do. So when you, again, like you, you see someone and they're going through something and they're saying that person's being a selfish asshole. there is a value to turning that lens back onto yourself and saying, well, what things do I do that are selfish, that might not have the same repercussions? What grace do I seek and can I offer [00:35:00] that same grace to this person, right?
Throwing selfish at them as if were a moral deficiency is only going to make them, one confused, thinking that I have a choice, but my body is being ripped out of itself when I don't have this thing. So you're telling me that I have a choice. So if I have a choice and I'm still doing this, I must not be strong enough to change. I'm gonna stop trying, I will become what you say I am. And then it gets worse. Right?
Dominique: Absolutely. Especially for families who wanna support their loved ones in active use or recovery, is that a lot of what we do comes out of a place of selfishness.
Joseph: Yeah.
Dominique: You know, I think when my brother was really in the thick of his substance use, I was scared shitless. So a lot of the actions that I was doing to quote support him were really driven by my own fear of what would happen. And it was to make me feel better about the situation.
as much it was to make him. Uh, better, you know, and better health and in, in a, in a safer [00:36:00] space.
Joseph: Well, I mean, at the end of the day is
Dominique: right? You said the word survival
Joseph: earlier. If I am deciding to cut someone outta my life
mm-hmm.
That is self-preservation. Absolutely.
So that is a selfish thing. I think a lot of the issue we have is we don't want to be made to look foolish. We don't want to be like, someone steals something from our home and we tell our friends, oh yeah, Johnny came home and we let him back in and he stole our fine silver. And they were like, we told you if you let him back in.
And then you have to ask yourself like, well, what's more important johnny being alive another week? Or me not having my silver? that's a really soft example because lines have to be drawn, where there's violence that sort. like, that's super important is like, gets lost is like you can still have those boundaries without abandoning that person person.
Dominique: And I think that's like something that's very important.
Joseph: You can compassionately say no. Mm-hmm. You can compassionately draw a line, you can compassionately lock a door and take a key away from her.
I mean, there [00:37:00] are ways to do it that force the person to either see their culpability in what's happening ~um, ~without shaming them for it like, I understand where you're at with, and I've had this conversation with friends there is no guaranteed anything
Mm. When it's all said and done.
And either the person is in recovery and things are great And, you know, they're being interviewed on podcast or they are being buried and remembered and eulogized. The living is still here.
Mm-hmm.
And how do you want. That person to spend their last moments, if they are their last moments, knowing that they're loved, knowing that, but for grace, there go I And that you are not deserving but worthy.
Dominique: I I think everyone is worthy of
Joseph: Yeah.
Dominique: That [00:38:00] love and support and compassion
Joseph: and there are things you have to do to allow for it to come in.
Dominique: I think people feel shame sometimes providing that love and support and, you know, you are talking about these boundaries. And I think families often get stuck on like what boundaries actually look like. How would you talk about or talk about each of these things differently between boundaries versus natural consequences versus creating a punishment that you think that they are quote deserving of boundaries are really something that we create to protect ourselves, but I think they often come through as punishments that we put on other people or know, we wash our hands of any boundaries because we think natural consequences will take place.
Joseph: Yeah. I don't believe in punishments. I robbed a bank, now I go to jail. But nothing in jail is fixing the reasons why I robbed the bank. I'm not getting a better education. I'm not getting job training, [00:39:00] I'm not getting, ~um,~ mental health mm-hmm. Therapy or, alternative ways to deal with whatever. Trauma made me think that robbing a bank was the only way of doing this thing. Right. I'm not getting any of those things in jail. That's a punishment. If spanking worked. If punishment worked, you would only ever have to do it once. Mm-hmm. Right.
So the recidivism of, you know, the kid stealing the candy from the candy jar doesn't stop you spank them. them For some people there is no thing bad enough To keep them from doing the thing. Yeah. That their mind is set on doing. anything, they'll find a workaround. They'll find a workaround, or they'll be able to absorb the punishment or disassociate from the punishment they'll know it's coming, so it doesn't have the shock that it did.
And then you, and this is why nonviolent tactics work in protests, you eventually have to become such a monster that like you are trying to break this person. You have to stop and say, this is not going anywhere. This punishment is not going [00:40:00] anywhere. And if you're not addressing the humanity, so consequences are the what happens naturally.
If I hit someone, that person is going to be afraid of me. They're going to hit me back. They're going to not trust me anymore. If I take from this household. At a certain point, I'm going to prevent this household from being able to survive anymore.
Right? And so I, at some point ~there has,~ there's a natural line that crosses, I'm not locking you out because I don't like you or because I don't want you here. But if you keep taking from this space, then we won't have anything.
And so now you have to make a decision as the person on the other side of that, are you willing to live with that consequence of this natural boundary?
And everyone gets to make ~what that idea, ~what that boundary is for themselves? But it doesn't come from the moral superiority.
Mm-hmm.
That
Dominique: you are [00:41:00] bad, therefore
I'm going to do this
bad thing to you
Mm-hmm. so that you will now be good.
Me creating ultimatums. Yeah, ultimatums I feel like that's
Joseph: something that I, I've done a lot. that I've definitely done and learned from. When you put an ultimatum in front of another person, especially when that person is the one who struggles with substance use, you're, you're having them choose between the lesser of two evils that they are perceiving.
But
usually
it's
because you're hoping that they
make the choice in the decision
that you
want
them to
make, not
necessarily what you
believe is
best
for
them.
or what they
believe is best for
themselves.
This conversation is different in different parts of society, in different households, in different economic spaces, different cultures.
Some communities putting somebody out is still
putting
Dominique: out into a space
Joseph: that has streetlights and it's safe. And you know, they could find a someplace to go where they, their insurance would be able to, yeah. And then there's like putting somebody out and like [00:42:00] the inner city of Baltimore and it's just like, I'm putting you out because you are immediately putting them in more harm but then you have to ask that mother or that parent who has two other kids and so on so forth. It's like the society does not have the resources in it for me to be compassionate. Mm-hmm. And I think that's another really important thing is that like if I have three kids and one kid is bringing violence into our household or bringing drugs into our household and I don't have the finance, health insurance or infrastructure and the community around me
to be compassionate and get help and have support and sometimes the only thing I can do to save the lives of the people who are here hundred percent is, is get that
person outta here. So I
just, I
want to
be
clear
Dominique: to
everyone
Joseph: who's
listening
that
I
realize
that there are
levels
to
this and that
a lot
of
this
compassion
till
the end
talk
comes, everyone
doesn't work for everyone.
And that's also something that we need to be addressing. We [00:43:00] can choose compassion all the way to the end, understanding that the end is different for different people, and realize that part of the problem is that we don't tend to think about these issues until they are in our lap. And if we as a society took better care of one another, whether or not we had immediate skin in the game or not.
And said, you know what? More important than having another bar in this neighborhood, we need to make sure that we come together at the next city council meeting and insist that, you know, our neighborhood has a mental health space, a respite, a rec center for young people. Like these are the things that we need to create so that compassion is even possible.
Right. So I've just, coming from where I come from,
Dominique: sometimes
Joseph: I think it's easy for
Dominique: whatever person
to just be like,
we just gotta
choose
Love
sometimes.
Sometimes you
can't. Yeah.
Sometimes it's not [00:44:00] always an option that you're afforded, especially if you're living in survival mode. Yeah. Right. Especially if you're a parent and you do have other kids in your family that you're taking care of. And I think the important part of our conversation, and I think with the conversations in general that I try to have on the podcast is that it's not a one size fits all approach.
Yeah. Right. It's not always gonna be, you know, compassion till the end. I think there is a blend of different resources, a blend of different approaches that work for everyone.
And I
think
it's
important
to
change the narrative that there's like a
one
size
fits
all.
we talked a lot about our experiences, you know, both collectively, you know, supporting families and loved ones. Your own story. We talked a lot about the power of language and how that can really influence how we decide to show up for others.
How has your experiences and the work you do, provided hope
for you?
then I realized that the greater calling
Joseph: for
me
was
realizing
how in
recovery, how important
my ability
to
myself [00:45:00]
was.
Right. How
in
my coming to understand myself as a black person in America, as a father, as a son, as all of these things
Dominique: all
came
Joseph: from
the power of story, right?
Someone said to me once, why are
you teaching poetry
workshops?
The
worlds need more poets. And
I
actually
Dominique: sat with
that
for a
moment
and I
Joseph: like, I don't,
I don't
think I'm doing that. I don't
think I'm
trying
to
create more poets.
I
am
Dominique: trying to
create
Joseph: poetically
minded
people. Some of us need to get
in front
of
an
audience. Some of us
Dominique: need to
Joseph: to
our
loved one and be able to express ourselves, right? Some of us need to change the story that we're telling ourselves in our own head, right? How
is
story going to
help you?
I find hope in getting out and talking to people. I'm choosing
to do
all of those things
and that
I
am inspired to do those
things,
not because I'm innately good, right? But because
I've
been
inspired [00:46:00] by
other people who
Dominique: have done the
Joseph: thing in my life. Our
life
Dominique: is one big story, but I feel like we live our life in
series of
chapters. Yeah.
And
for, for families in particular that are trying
to find
hope,
especially in
like
the darkest
of
days
when their
loved one is not
in
recovery,
Joseph: are in
Dominique: active addiction.
Things just feel chaotic or overwhelming. Where would you
encourage them
to look to, to
find hope? And how
would you
encourage them to
not
be defined by their stories, but
Joseph: find
ways to
continue
to live
in
spite
of '
'em?
Dominique: Intentional,
Joseph: kindness
to ourselves
can
begin
a cascading
effect
of
bigger kindnesses to the people around
us.
Dominique: Feeling
Joseph: present and aware and,
and
grateful. There
are little things that we can do
that
can sometimes
quiet
the alarm
and
urgency
of
the world that we've created
Dominique: around
us
Joseph: that
will
give
us
a [00:47:00] fighting
chance.
Yeah.
Right.
Dominique: And
Joseph: that's how
we
start that journey,
Dominique: I
think. And
even
if,
you
know,
even
if
you're
doing
great
Joseph: for yourself,
Dominique: sometimes
just stop
and
Yeah.
Yeah. And be where
you
are. Yeah. I
always say, my
friend always says, sit with yourself. Count
Joseph: ceiling
Dominique: tiles. And, um,
like you said,
sometimes walk.
Breathe, pay attention
to those
subtle signs because those are
things that
we
not
only
take for
granted
of,
but
we
Joseph: that
we
have choice. Yeah.
And
sometimes we
move
through
life not
intentional with the
decisions we make.
Dominique: an exercise
that I
Joseph: I ask
Dominique: people
like,
Joseph: do you
like to do
on a
rainy
day?
Dominique: Right
Joseph: so what
I started
to notice, a
lot of
the
things that people do on
Dominique: a rainy
Joseph: are
a
form of
self-regulation.
Joseph: Cozy up with a good book. Go out in the
rain.
catch
up on
my
favorite television show The
thing that you
do
when
you
think you
can't
do
Dominique: anything else
is something
that
brings
you
joy.
I can't expect my children [00:48:00] live any better or to treat themselves any better than treat myself.
Joseph: So
a lot of times,
if
I'm giving a talk
Dominique: the first
Joseph: is
always,
what
are you doing
for you? Cause
not only
Dominique: do
you
need
Joseph: be the example,
but
you need to be
the best
version of yourself
to
help this
person who
is going
through whatever
it is
they're
going through.
The easiest thing for us to do as humans is to see someone who's living hypocritically and allow our cynicism to miss any good news or Definitely advice that they're us.
As a parent, if your child is struggling with mental health or starting to experiment or addiction, no matter where they are, you still need
to
be
the
best
version of yourself.
the family is as strong as the totality of the family and if you are run down and you're someone who is run down, it's easier for it to break.
Dominique: When your loved one [00:49:00] finds recovery or they start their recovery journey, doesn't mean that's when problems are over.
Especially if you guys all live together, thinking about how you can fill those cracks that have been there and how you can actually try to support them in that process.
Joseph: most importantly, is
putting
on
your
own
oxygen
first.
Dominique: first
Joseph: Yeah. Yeah.
Dominique: There a
Joseph: of
miserable sober
people.
Yeah.
Right.
And so
if
you are just trying
to.
Get someone to stop doing
a thing
for
the
sake
of
not doing that thing
and
not providing
Dominique: them
with
any
Joseph: alternative,
like
Dominique: visibly
of
what
life could
be
Joseph: that
Dominique: thing
Joseph: really
difficult
for them to
be like,
oh
yeah,
I wanna
Dominique: be sober Yeah.
Joseph: can
be sober.
I poor
and
an asshole you
gotta get
the buy-in and
you wanting
that
change So
Dominique: So that's the power of attraction, I think. Like
Joseph: Find joy wherever
you
can
find it.
You
know, if
you
don't have
the
means to go out someplace,
create joy
in
your home.
Dominique: I love that. Yeah.
[00:50:00] I
really
appreciate you
taking
the
time
to shed light on
the language
that
we use
because
these are words that
we hear
all the
time.
And I think
making
those changes
towards
a more
compassionate approach starts with how we
have these
conversations. So
I really appreciate
you
coming
onto the show
today,
Joseph.
And
keep
Joseph: the
amazing storytelling
that
Dominique: you're doing.
people will say that there's too many podcasts. I
Joseph: can
look
up
recovery
and
there's 500 things to
Dominique: choose
from and so
forth.
Joseph: There's
something about
the
people who staff the lighthouse.
Joseph: There are people
who
Dominique: are
looking
Joseph: for a
light, we
don't
Dominique: know
what is
Joseph: shine
and
get
their
attention, but
we know
that
if nothing shines
at all, then there's nothing to look at.
And so I I thank you for,
creating
this
space for us ~to have this conversation and for you~ to have these conversations. And I
Dominique: I hope that you have all the success in you
dethroning Joe
Rogan.
But if you don't do any,
Joseph: if you don't do those things, um, know
Dominique: that you know that. This has made
positive effect in my [00:51:00] life and it will go forward to,
you know, touch other
Joseph: people. Oh, thank you.
Dominique: They always say you can't have the light without the dark.
Dominique: Thanks for listening to this episode of For Love of Recovery. If you enjoyed this episode or know somebody who might, please leave a comment and share it. You can also join our Facebook group, siblings for Love of Recovery. If you're looking to have deeper conversations around your siblings drug or alcohol addiction. And remember whether there's hope, there's healing.